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Author Topic: Iran what next?  (Read 1446 times)

Offline iddee

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2019, 02:14:21 pm »
Do all those half sentences have a meaning?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline northwesterner

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2019, 02:30:14 pm »
Do all those half sentences have a meaning?
Yes. Think why they may not want to 'wipe out' the people around them. Also "think about the other half sentences"

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2019, 02:49:33 pm »
And why do you think it has not happened, yet? I think you know the reason! Eventually if they felt it was in their interest.......

When would there have ever been a better time, or when will it be more in their best interest than the times Kathy spoke of if that was there goal? Your reasoning does not make sense to me from this standpoint, perhaps you can clarify?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 03:19:54 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline kathyp

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2019, 03:34:26 pm »
Quote
And why do you think it has not happened, yet? I think you know the reason! Eventually if they felt it was in their interest.......
You may well wonder why some politicians have said the best thing for peace in the middle east is......relocate Israel into the US. Bit extreme I would think. The phrase "wishing it on my worst enemy" springs to mind.

The Isralies are in their homeland.  Why on earth should they be relocated anywhere but where they belong? 

Why would Israel not wipe out those around them?  Well, I have never heard Israel call for the annihilation of another nation.  Perhaps their ethos is different from those around them?

You should go back and look at the original UN mandates for Palestine.   Go back even farther and you have the Balfour Declaration.   The Arabs created this problem, they use the "Palestinians" as tools to whip up stupid people, and they have no interest in solving the problem.  If they had followed the mandate instead of attacking Israel and losing, everyone would have what they say they want.

Most of the so-called Palestinians have no historical claim to the area.  Many are the descendants of terrorist kicked out of countries like Lebanon.  Arafat, as an example, was from Egypt. 
The people have been happy to be used and to put into power people who took what they could get and left the people in poverty in spite of the fact that billions have been donated to help them.  Materials for building have been used for terrorist tunnels.  Leaders have taken the cash instead of feeding the people.  They use civilians as shields for their missile launch sites.
There is little to redeem at least the leadership, and perhaps the people since they do not have the sense to choose better.

On the other hand, Israel is a constitutional democracy and over 20% of their population are not Jews.  Many are Arab Muslims.  Citizens and legal residents all have the same rights and Muslims serve in their government. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

Let me know when the surrounding governments extend the same to Jews. 


They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline northwesterner

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2019, 04:56:07 pm »
KathyP
There are several million people around them who are happy to be used as tools, but who should thank God every day that they have not been wiped out.
Why do you think this has not happened? What is the one reason they could not do it? After all as you say they have the capability, denied for decades for the convenience of the western powers. The clue is the holocaust.

Offline northwesterner

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2019, 05:35:33 pm »
Quote
And why do you think it has not happened, yet? I think you know the reason! Eventually if they felt it was in their interest.......
You may well wonder why some politicians have said the best thing for peace in the middle east is......relocate Israel into the US. Bit extreme I would think. The phrase "wishing it on my worst enemy" springs to mind.

The Isralies are in their homeland.  Why on earth should they be relocated anywhere but where they belong? 

Why would Israel not wipe out those around them?  Well, I have never heard Israel call for the annihilation of another nation.  Perhaps their ethos is different from those around them?

You should go back and look at the original UN mandates for Palestine.   Go back even farther and you have the Balfour Declaration.   The Arabs created this problem, they use the "Palestinians" as tools to whip up stupid people, and they have no interest in solving the problem.  If they had followed the mandate instead of attacking Israel and losing, everyone would have what they say they want.

Most of the so-called Palestinians have no historical claim to the area.  Many are the descendants of terrorist kicked out of countries like Lebanon.  Arafat, as an example, was from Egypt. 
The people have been happy to be used and to put into power people who took what they could get and left the people in poverty in spite of the fact that billions have been donated to help them.  Materials for building have been used for terrorist tunnels.  Leaders have taken the cash instead of feeding the people.  They use civilians as shields for their missile launch sites.
There is little to redeem at least the leadership, and perhaps the people since they do not have the sense to choose better.

On the other hand, Israel is a constitutional democracy and over 20% of their population are not Jews.  Many are Arab Muslims.  Citizens and legal residents all have the same rights and Muslims serve in their government. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset

Let me know when the surrounding governments extend the same to Jews.
"The Isralies are in their homeland.  Why on earth should they be relocated anywhere but where they belong" 
I think the statement was rhetorical! not to be taken seriously!!! although I suppose you have the room, especially in Oregon.

Offline kathyp

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2019, 05:55:30 pm »
Quote
After all as you say they have the capability, denied for decades for the convenience of the western powers. The clue is the holocaust.

Actually, the clue is that they are not the same as those who attack them.  There is nothing in their belief system that says convert or die.  There is nothing in their legal writings that say others do not have the right to exist.  Their religion does not tell them that one of the few ways to paradise it martyrdom.  They do not scream from the synagog that others must cease to exist. 

There is this western idea that everyone in the world is basically the same and all people want the same things.  This is untrue, and we fail to understand that at our own peril. 

Imagine what the Palestinians could have if they put the same energy they use hating Israel into making their own place and people better.  They have had billions of dollars and aid to do it but have chosen another path.  Choices have consequences, and they are very lucky that Israel has not given them what they are due.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline incognito

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2019, 01:06:32 am »
Go back even farther and you have the Balfour Declaration.


Per wikipedia, which I assume is reasonably accurate. Please let me know if there are any substantive errors.

The Balfour Declaration was a public statement issued by the British government in 1917 during World War I announcing support for the establishment of a  "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine, then an Ottoman region with a small minority Jewish population. It read:

>His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.


The declaration was contained in a letter dated 2 November 1917 from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour to Lord Rothschild, a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland. The text of the declaration was published in the press on 9 November 1917.

Immediately following their declaration of war on the Ottoman Empire in November 1914, the British War Cabinet began to consider the future of Palestine; within two months a memorandum was circulated to the Cabinet by a Zionist Cabinet member, Herbert Samuel, proposing the support of Zionist ambitions in order to enlist the support of Jews in the wider war.

So let me know if I got this right.

  • Brittan seeks support of Jews in their war effort,
  • so the British Government proposes to promise Jews land,
  • in non British territory - Palestine,
  • where Jews are a small minority,
  • in the Ottoman Empire that Brittan is at war with,
  • and the European leaders agree this is a good idea,
  • and the idea gets implemented after WWII,
  • and the plan does not work out so well,
  • because the locals were not in agreement.
Who is surprised?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 01:23:56 am by incognito »
Tom

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2019, 01:44:52 am »
Well Ingognito - from the history books I've read, there's just a wee bit more to the story than your Wikipedia posting - from all sides of the equation... a few thousand years more to the story.

I have a rather large library that I've collected thru all my life, and I've read every book in it - multiple views on each subject. The majority are on history. Your posting is "1 small side of a very small slice of the total story ...

I'm not jewish - and I feel no special obligation to the jews. ...but I abhor "revisionist history". The total truth matters imho.

Just sayin'.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline incognito

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2019, 02:22:01 am »
Well Ingognito - from the history books I've read, there's just a wee bit more to the story than your Wikipedia posting - from all sides of the equation... a few thousand years more to the story.

I have a rather large library that I've collected thru all my life, and I've read every book in it - multiple views on each subject. The majority are on history. Your posting is "1 small side of a very small slice of the total story ...

I'm not jewish - and I feel no special obligation to the jews. ...but I abhor "revisionist history". The total truth matters imho.

Just sayin'.
I just spent the last hour reading up on its history, much like the rest of the world's where territory gets assumed by one government and then another and another and so on.
I too am not taking sides.
My point is a bunch of outsiders tried to decide what was best for the locals.
My further reading about the Balfour Declaration says that it's failure was predicted at the start.

Tom

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2019, 05:06:14 am »
The Balfour Declaration was a public statement issued by the British government in 1917 during World War I. A means to an end.
Pre Balfour the British government were considered to be the worlds policemen and so felt they could implement their will. Not so! as we have now seen. Probably the same thing will happen to the US re lots of conflicts. As we, the UK have been told lots of times "what goes around comes around"
We can be blamed quite rightly for lots of things that have gone wrong in the world. Ignorance was bliss :embarassed: but maybe there is a lesson to be learned in all of this, as long as it is recognised. 
cider 
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2019, 01:17:20 pm »
What are the odds of any people that had been scattered all over the world, wandering for almost two thousand years, brought back into their homeland against all odds,  after having almost lost their native language, and that restored along with their homeland. Has this ever happened anywhere in history either ancient or modern?

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2019, 02:42:40 pm »
What are the odds of any people that had been scattered all over the world, wandering for almost two thousand years, brought back into their homeland against all odds,  after having almost lost their native language, and that restored along with their homeland. Has this ever happened anywhere in history either ancient or modern?
And your point is ? Would it have happened without Balfour?
cider
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2019, 02:58:07 pm »
What are the odds of any people that had been scattered all over the world, wandering for almost two thousand years, brought back into their homeland against all odds,  after having almost lost their native language, and that restored along with their homeland. Has this ever happened anywhere in history either ancient or modern?
And your point is ? Would it have happened without Balfour?
cider

It is simply amazing to me.  I will ask the same question to you all, Would it have happened without Balfour?
Phillip

Offline kathyp

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2019, 07:56:56 pm »
I am not sure  Balfour is relevant as a matter of law.  It was a statement of intent.  What is relevant are the UN mandates on Palestine and the way they were or were not implemented.

I am not a huge UN fan, but that was a more than equitable division of land.  Jews had already been moving back and buying land.  There were not that many indigenous people there.  Most were either farming land for absent owners, or were nomadic.  As Jews bought and improved land, areas that had been useless became productive. 

If the Muslim countries surrounding what was to become Israel had implemented the deal instead of attacking, everyone would have had their space,  and the larger part would have become a country for the existing residents who did not want to be part of Israel. 

Yes the territory was managed by the Brits and it was their failure to allow self-rule as they had promised that caused the Isralies to attack them, but that was not what led to what exists now.  These so-called Palestinians are the people no one wants.  The Arab and Persian countries don't want them and don't want to take care of them.  Their use is as a tool to stir up international angst and be thrown occasionally at Israel. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline kathyp

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2019, 08:00:34 pm »
Quote
Would it have happened without Balfour?

The same thing that happened with it.  Nothing came of it at the time. 

This is what mattered.

https://mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisrael/maps/pages/1947%20un%20partition%20plan.aspx

https://www.britannica.com/topic/United-Nations-Resolution-181
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline northwesterner

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2019, 03:29:01 pm »
Destroy a country, that is insane.  No I do not believe that.  I do not wish harm to any country, but realize history informs us the future is otherwise.  What I do believe is: there is PARADOX with Iran.  Unfortunately sometimes a person has to be killed to prevent further killing.

As far back in time as a person wishes, Cain will always be there.  And if Cain lives, he will walk into the desert, he will create cities which become a country, which chat in the streets DEATH TO ABLE.

BTW what innocence people?  The innocent people you are referring are chanting DEATH to my country.  Does that sound innocent????  Wishing death to 350 million folks?  Think of who is innocent here???  You have it backwards.  Maybe if they were chanty death to the U.K., you might develope a different attitude without bias, see the light and stand with your ally, directing guilt where it properly belongs,,,,,,to those wishing DEATH to 350 million innocent peace loving folks, my country the great USA.
Blessings
Do you seriously believe the normal man in the street be it Tehrān or Atlanta want to destroy each others country? It is politicians and religious leaders who brain wash certain elements of the population to agree to that. It should always be more jaw jaw than war war first.

N/W
President Trump has now started trying to form a 'coalition' to police the Straits of Homuz is this the start of another middle east war? The US is self sufficient in oil not so the rest of the world. If this part of the world is involved in a conflagration
including Saudi Arabia,  Kuwait, Iran and Iraq what will this do to the worlds economy? Boost Russia, Venezuela who would want that?

Offline kathyp

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2019, 11:16:07 pm »
Quote
President Trump has now started trying to form a 'coalition' to police the Straits of Homuz is this the start of another middle east war? The US is self sufficient in oil not so the rest of the world. If this part of the world is involved in a conflagration
including Saudi Arabia,  Kuwait, Iran and Iraq what will this do to the worlds economy? Boost Russia, Venezuela who would want that?

You may not realize this, but we have been protecting that transit area for decades.  What Trump would like is for those who have an interest in getting their stuff through, to step up and help out. 
What does it do for Russia when Germany and others in the EU are making deals with Russia for natural gas?  It makes Russia rich, but worse, it makes those countries dependant on Russia who has already shown they have no problem turning off the gas if they are unhappy. 

Venezuela can't even pump their oil out of the ground because they destroyed their oil companies.  IF they ever get it together, the country will need that oil and help to rebuild infrastructure.  We will give them that help.

On the one hand, the world says we are too powerful and too quick to be the policeman of the world.  On the other hand, you want us to protect you and your shipping. 
Tell you what, if these leftists in our country get their way, you will have to figure out how to protect yourself because we'll have about as much of a military as you all do and it won't be enough to do what we have been doing. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online cidersabuzzin

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2019, 07:42:25 pm »
Quote
President Trump has now started trying to form a 'coalition' to police the Straits of Homuz is this the start of another middle east war? The US is self sufficient in oil not so the rest of the world. If this part of the world is involved in a conflagration
including Saudi Arabia,  Kuwait, Iran and Iraq what will this do to the worlds economy? Boost Russia, Venezuela who would want that?

You may not realize this, but we have been protecting that transit area for decades.  What Trump would like is for those who have an interest in getting their stuff through, to step up and help out. 
What does it do for Russia when Germany and others in the EU are making deals with Russia for natural gas?  It makes Russia rich, but worse, it makes those countries dependant on Russia who has already shown they have no problem turning off the gas if they are unhappy. 

Venezuela can't even pump their oil out of the ground because they destroyed their oil companies.  IF they ever get it together, the country will need that oil and help to rebuild infrastructure.  We will give them that help.

On the one hand, the world says we are too powerful and too quick to be the policeman of the world.  On the other hand, you want us to protect you and your shipping. 
Tell you what, if these leftists in our country get their way, you will have to figure out how to protect yourself because we'll have about as much of a military as you all do and it won't be enough to do what we have been doing.
And why should that be a bad thing from both points of view? From the tone of your post isn't that what you really want? introspective isolationism. You have for decades been paying the world by various means for the things you want at a price you want to pay May be your self sufficient friends in the backwoods have a point. Until they need a new phone, batteries, light bulbs, medicines et al then it all falls apart. As you know Kathy the world is a complex trading machine. Everything is connected, only overly ambitious politicians screw it up! :sad:
cider
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Offline kathyp

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Re: Iran what next?
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2019, 11:45:06 pm »
Quote
You have for decades been paying the world by various means for the things you want at a price you want to pay

No, what we have done since ww2 is make a lot of crap trade deals to help other countries recover.  I assume you are as recovered from ww2 as you are going to get.  We also made crap trade deals with Asia and with our neighbors. 

NAFTA was one of the worst and everyone knew it at the time.

No, I don't want to be isolationist.  I also don't want to be the worlds piggy bank or punching bag.  If you think we are so bad, you do what we have been doing and good luck with that.  You'll have to make some hard choices. 

I think one of the things that set Europeans off about Trump was that he made it clear for many years that he wanted new trade deals and for other countries to at least meet their NATO obligations.  I guess if I was busy passing out subsidized housing, heating, and feeding to everyone and had no money left over, I'd worry about being asked to pay up too. 
If these nutter leftist get what they want, we'll be in the same boat and I guess we'll all figure it out together...while Russia, China, and their surrogates laugh. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville