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Author Topic: Is impeachment close?  (Read 5616 times)

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #240 on: January 28, 2020, 06:13:59 pm »
I was asking everyone.
I think the defense team did a good job knocking the House Managers' case one premise at a time. I think they would have been negligent not to take on each allegation.
They convinced me that the obstruction charge also fails. I was on the fence over that one. I said in earlier posts that the democrats did not negotiate in good faith over requested documents and witnesses. I did not know that was referred to as inter branch accommodation required before litigation. (Kathy, I concede to your position.)

The defense team convinced me last night that Clinton should not have been impeached because a high crime was not committed no matter how it disgusted me that he was guilty of perjury.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 06:31:07 pm by incognito »
Tom

Offline Acebird

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #241 on: January 28, 2020, 06:18:39 pm »
Is it possible to get some facts to back up those accusations? ... please!
I do not for one second believe that you would accept any facts coming from me.  They are out there plain as day.  I am not going to waste any of my time giving you the research you should be doing yourself.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #242 on: January 28, 2020, 06:26:07 pm »
So....what would it take for you to change your mind?
What question(s) would you ask either the Managers or the defense team that would matter to your conclusion - assuming it was answered honestly?
Where are the documents asked for and when will the people subpoenaed testify?  You can't get justice if you allow Trump and the white house to ignore subpoenas.  That is what obstruction of justice is.
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Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #243 on: January 28, 2020, 06:37:34 pm »
So....what would it take for you to change your mind?
What question(s) would you ask either the Managers or the defense team that would matter to your conclusion - assuming it was answered honestly?
Where are the documents asked for and when will the people subpoenaed testify?  You can't get justice if you allow Trump and the white house to ignore subpoenas.  That is what obstruction of justice is.
So how many non definitive witness and how many non definitive documents would it take before you changed your mind? How would that testimony or documents prove the negative, not guilty? Would there ever be enough for you. That was the question I posed.
Tom

Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #244 on: January 28, 2020, 07:25:31 pm »
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You can't get justice if you allow Trump and the white house to ignore subpoenas.  That is what obstruction of justice is.

Actually, no.  That's what executive privilege is and that's what courts are for.  Obstruction of justice has not been charged.  In fact, no crime has been charged. 

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I am not going to waste any of my time giving you the research you should be doing yourself.

You never answer questions which leads me to believe you do not do research. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline iddee

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #245 on: January 28, 2020, 08:49:07 pm »
WOW. A 51 year old president coaching a little 21 year old intern working in the white house to give him blow jobs in the oval office is less then trying to stop the son of an ex vice president from making millions through corruption. Now THAT is a mouthful. I cannot believe you even thought that, much less had the nerve to say it.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #246 on: January 28, 2020, 09:04:43 pm »
WOW. A 51 year old president coaching a little 21 year old intern working in the white house to give him blow jobs in the oval office is less then trying to stop the son of an ex vice president from making millions through corruption. Now THAT is a mouthful. I cannot believe you even thought that, much less had the nerve to say it.
Yeah, I know. He should have resigned for his behavior. No doubt. That would have involved integrity. Is it a high crime? A crime against the people he is supposed to serve? Even Harvey Weinstien's company tossed him out. His fellow politicians should have persuaded Clinton to leave. We got the wrong outcome.
Tom

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #247 on: January 28, 2020, 09:19:07 pm »
It is a bait and switch to keep saying all these other people do bad and should have been punished but since they were not, nobody should be.  Whether clinton got kicked out or not does not mean that trump should not be punished for doing wrong.  Yes, I think trumps actions fit the reason that impeachment was put in the constitution compared to clinton.  However, had they kicked clinton out, you guys would still seem to be saying that trump should not be kicked out.  Are you saying that if they would have got clinton, then you would agree that they should get trump?  Tell the truth now.
Cheers
gww

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #248 on: January 28, 2020, 09:27:12 pm »
I see no evidence to date that Trump's action was related to the 2020 election.
The Democrats have done more damage to Uncle Joe in the 2020 election by shining this spotlight on Trump's actions than Trump's actions.
The main stream media had reported on Little Joe's actions before Trump got involved.
This is a shell game. A witch hunt.
Give me hard evidence that I am wrong about 2020 and I can change my mind.

I hope to God that all the children of our senators and legislators do not get no show jobs for $1 million a year from foreign companies. That is not what public service should be about. The investigation is fair game.
Tom

Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #249 on: January 28, 2020, 09:31:33 pm »
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Is it a high crime? A crime against the people he is supposed to serve?

Bill didn't get in trouble for dropping his pants.  As they always say, the coverup is worse than the crime.  The impeachable crimes listed in the Starr report are available online.  Paula got a little justice, but the women who accused him of assault and rape did not. 

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Yes, I think trumps actions fit the reason that impeachment was put in the constitution compared to clinton.

Clinton committed actual crimes, some of them felonies.  Even so, he stayed in office.  What crime is alleged in the Trump case? 

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #250 on: January 28, 2020, 09:58:06 pm »
Tom
The republicans controlled congress way back in 2015 when hunter was working in Ukraine.  Nobody was calling for investigations till daddy started running for office.

I don't know myself like you don't know on hunter but does it make you wonder about ivanka getting a bunch of patents from china while we are in a trade war and her dad is prez?
Cheers
gww

Ps we could do this all day long in pointing at things that might be wrong on all sides and never solve any of the wrongness or we could take out opportunity to prove that wrong doing can be punished and maybe that would give wrong doing a thought of pause before every one else justifying it is ok cause everyone gets away with it.

PS PS  I will say that I am pretty sure my old man would have had me do a few things different in my life if he could have controlled me.  There might be a few other things that joe would have controlled in hunter if he could have.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 10:20:41 pm by gww »

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #251 on: January 28, 2020, 10:07:10 pm »
Kathy
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Even so, he stayed in office.  What crime is alleged in the Trump case?
We would probably figure that out pretty quick if he wasn't president but under current guide lines he can not be charged with anything except by congress.  If he was an illinois gov, he would probably be going to jail now.

I am pretty sure a prosecutor would have a good chance of finding a law and probably a felony.
Cheers
gww

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #252 on: January 28, 2020, 10:49:48 pm »
I believe the senate will do what they want and at the end at election time, I will have one vote.  I do think that the senate would be doing its job by getting what they know is out there and especially john bolten and a few others.  The info is there.  I understand if they come to the conclusion to not convict in the end if they know the facts and don't care, even if I do care.  I don't think the senate has so much on their plate that they can't do this part of there job and would rather nothing else come out before they make their decision.  They should get the stuff that they already know is there and make their decision based on all of it in the public eye cause it is going to come out.  I believe they short change the public if they do it any other way. One of those shortcomings will be our view of them as an institution if they claim later they didn't know something that was in easy reach before they made their decision.  If they put their selves in that position.  The public faith in them will be less then it is now.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #253 on: January 28, 2020, 11:17:10 pm »
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We would probably figure that out pretty quick if he wasn't president but under current guide lines he can not be charged with anything except by congress.  If he was an illinois gov, he would probably be going to jail now.

I am pretty sure a prosecutor would have a good chance of finding a law and probably a felony.

But we are dealing with what congress found in their investigation.  What is the crime?  Not what you wish it had been or wish they had found.  We are impeaching him now based on what?

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I do think that the senate would be doing its job by getting what they know is out there and especially john bolten and a few others.  The info is there.

It was the job of the House to bring the charges.  They could have spent more time on it.  They could have gone to court to compel witnesses or documents.  They chose not to do that. 
So again, on what crime should the Senate impeach?  It is not their job to do the investigation.  It is their job to sit in judgement of what the house presented.

Now...I don't care if they do call witnesses except that this will drag on for months.  I just don't see the point in the Senate doing what the House should have done if they thought there was important stuff they were missing.  It had to be done RIGHT NOW so that Nancy could sit on it for a month. 

Very often I hear from the left that Clinton was impeached over sex.  That's not accurate, but if that is the argument then Trump is being impeached over a phone call. 
Please explain the thinking that leads to trying to remove a president months before an election when no crime is charged or even alleged. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline jvalentour

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #254 on: January 28, 2020, 11:29:41 pm »
But we are dealing with what congress found in their investigation.  What is the crime?  Not what you wish it had been or wish they had found.  We are impeaching him now based on what?

The Democrats are impeaching a Republican President based on an anonymous persons accusation. 

Legally this exercise is unlawful.  It is a media Crucifixion more than anything else. 
Either way it goes, there will be hell to pay.

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #255 on: January 28, 2020, 11:51:21 pm »
kathy
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So again, on what crime should the Senate impeach?  It is not their job to do the investigation.  It is their job to sit in judgement of what the house presented.
See, Your reason is not why I elect a senator.  I elect a senator who takes an oath when he takes that job to protect the constitution from enemy's foreign and domestic.  I figure it is always their job to do that even if their cohorts don't take that responsibility seriously.  I don't elect them to pass the buck.  The senate does many of their own investigations even outside of impeachment in pursuit of that.  So if I elect them to stand for truth, justice and the american way and they know how to get the truth for the american people, looking for scapegoats is not acceptable.
If they did not have the power, that would be one thing but they do.
Cheers
gww

Offline iddee

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #256 on: January 29, 2020, 06:40:37 am »
""It is a bait and switch to keep saying all these other people do bad and should have been punished but since they were not, nobody should be.""

That's not what I was saying. I was saying how shocked I was that you thought rape and rape by coercion was less than trying to stop corruption That's what totally surprised me.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #257 on: January 29, 2020, 09:34:40 am »
Obstruction of justice has not been charged.
Obstruction of congress which in this case results in obstruction of justice.  He knows he is guilty.

Quote
You never answer questions which leads me to believe you do not do research.
This is going to happen regardless of what I do or say.  If you don't know what I am saying is true then you are not doing the research or you are not accepting what you see or hear.
Listening to the phone conversation and concluding he did nothing wrong is a prime example.  If he did not have a gangster relationship with the senate he would be gone.  He has overstepped his power with the Senate as well as the House.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #258 on: January 29, 2020, 11:36:26 am »
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See, Your reason is not why I elect a senator.

It doesn't matter what YOUR reason is.  This is the Constitutional job of the Senate during an impeachment.  The House investigates and presents charges.  The Senate sits in judgment of those charges.  That's why the House sends impeachment managers to the Senate.  They argue the presented case to the Senate. 

During the Clinton trial the House got video depositions from 3 witnesses and those were viewed by the Senate.   Those witnesses were Monica Lewinsky,  Vernon Jordan and  Sidney Blumenthal.  That testimony was about things already in the Articles of Impeachment brought to the Senate by the House.  It was not a search for new stuff because the House didn't do a complete job. 

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The Democrats are impeaching a Republican President based on an anonymous persons accusation.

Worse, it was found to be wholly inaccurate as soon as the phonecall transcript was released.  That should have been the end of it.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline minz

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #259 on: January 29, 2020, 05:25:25 pm »
He is guilty of what he is charged with. The evidence and his own words say that, and he double downed on it as well. The only question that remains is ?is it impeachable? or was it a ?perfect phone call?? I think that the senate will vote along party lines, the real question is will they make it look like a political sham or give it a modicum of being authentic.
Poor decisions make the best stories.