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Author Topic: Is impeachment close?  (Read 5730 times)

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #260 on: January 29, 2020, 05:49:00 pm »
Kathy
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This is the Constitutional job of the Senate during an impeachment.
This is not the position that the senate took in past impeachments.  What, like 15 or 18 of them?  Maybe the johnson trial could show that?  You think?
Cheers
gww

Ps This is a senate trial, not an appeals court.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 06:04:44 pm by gww »

Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #261 on: January 29, 2020, 06:13:55 pm »
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This is not the position that the senate took in past impeachments.

It actually is the position of the Senate during the Clinton trial.  The video depositions were of witnesses that the house had heard.

Now if you want to study the Johnson trial, here it is from House to Senate.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/johnson.asp
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #262 on: January 29, 2020, 07:42:48 pm »
The Senate acts as the jury in an impeachment.  We can't have juries running around investigating behind the evidence presented by the prosecutor.  If the police and  prosecutor fail to find the evidence and develop a coherent case, the jury must acquit, not go out looking for more evidence so it can convict.  It is not the fault of the accused if the police and prosecutor are lacking in competence, and it is not the job of the jury to remedy that incompetence by independently conducting further investigation.  If a jury were allowed to further investigate, at what point would it then cease to investigate?  If it uncovered evidence that satisfies it of guilt, might further investigation reveal still more evidence that would prove the opposite to be true?  It is the job of the police and prosecution to develop a case.  If the state cannot establish facts that warrant charges being brought, it has an obligation to drop the matter.  The judge has the duty to insure that the accused receives a fair trial and that the rules of procedure and rules of evidence are followed.

Allowing the prosecution to bring charges and throw its  evidence against the wall to see what sticks is insane.  Allowing the jury to take the role of the police and prosecutor is utter stupidity.  Expecting the public to accept such a system of 'justice' is a travesty.  As a former prosecutor, I find this whole idea revolting.  As a lawyer, I find it repugnant.  As a citizen,  i find it un-American.

As to obstruction of Congress, the Executive branch is equal to the Legislative and Judicial branches.  It seems to me that it may be the job of the Executive to obstruct the Legislative branch, particularly the lower house thereof, which is by design given to impetuous actions, while the upper house of the Legislative branch is by design more contemplative in nature and given to less compulsive action.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #263 on: January 29, 2020, 08:02:11 pm »
Dallas
This is not a court trial.  This is a senate trial.  The courts are set up based on laws and procedures passed by legislators.  The senate derives its power from the constitution and what is written in the constitution.  You had your responsibilities in court and those are different then the senate responsibilities under the constitution.
Cheers
gww

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #264 on: January 29, 2020, 09:36:01 pm »
I know what it is, but the fact remains that the Senate acts AS A JURY in an impeachment.  The House returns Articles of Impeachment, which I would liken to an idictment.  The Senate's role is to convict or acquit, the same as a jury in a criminal trial.  Its role is to decide whether the Articles of Impeachment meet the standard required for conviction, just as a criminal court jury's job is to determine whether the evidence before it is sufficient to convict.  If the jurors (Senators) say, "Well, the evidence before us is not sufficient to convict, so we'll act as investigators and see if we can't find something we can use to convict," they have abandoned their roles as jurors.  So now who acts as a jury? 

No amount of wishful thinking on the part of someone on the sidelines makes it right for the jury to act as investigators in any kind of case or dispute.  It was the duty of the House of Representatives under the Constitution to develop the case against Trump, just as it was the duty of the House to develop the cases in prior impeachments.  The rush to put together Articles of Impeachment without properly exploring all the facts, in order to reach a conclusion desired by the leadership of the House was slipshod and unethical.  It reminds me a great deal of some prosecutors who work hard to convict people (especially minorities) in order to build a record of convictions without regard for whether the accused is guilty or innocent and, in fact, hide exculpatory evidence from the defence.  They were in such a rush to impeach that they refused to allow evidence not in line with their goal.  Now they are aware of the weakness of their case, so they want the Senate (the jury) to salvage their case from the wreckage they have made of things.

I don't know if there is a case for removal of Trump or not, but I don't see it in the Articles of Impeachment.  I just know that allowing the body serving as a jury to become investigators is a perversion of justice.

You can seek to justify doing things the way the Democrats want all you wish, GWW, but the fact is that there's a right way to go about things and there's a wrong way, and unless this is done the right way, hard feelings will last forever.  Probably will either way, of course.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline jvalentour

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #265 on: January 29, 2020, 09:55:46 pm »
the fact is that there's a right way to go about things and there's a wrong way

Seems like a difficult concept to get across these days....

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #266 on: January 29, 2020, 10:11:22 pm »
Dallas
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but the fact remains that the Senate acts AS A JURY in an impeachment.

A ruling body for justice in protection of the constitutional rule of law protecting the government for the american people.  Sitting in judgement is only part of their responsibility.   Unlike a jury, they have constituents and set their    own rule of conducting the process.  They have the same investigatory ability for investigating out of an impeachment as well as in one with serving the american people being prime.  Getting off on a technicality when it would not serve justice would not be a proper response from those with this responsibility. 

I do agree with you on your position of prosecutors in normal courts.  Going for a high conviction count in spite of whether justice is served so you have a good resume is evil.

I even think that justice is important in a senate trial also but just disagree that they can get out of that on a technicality rather then on facts that are know or that they know now that they need to know.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #267 on: January 29, 2020, 10:52:42 pm »
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A ruling body for justice in protection of the constitutional rule of law protecting the government for the american people.  Sitting in judgement is only part of their responsibility.   Unlike a jury, they have constituents and set their    own rule of conducting the process.  They have the same investigatory ability for investigating out of an impeachment as well as in one with serving the american people being prime.  Getting off on a technicality when it would not serve justice would not be a proper response from those with this responsibility.

They are not a ruling body for anything.  They are part of the legislative branch.  This one duty is outside their legislative duty. 

The question remains:  If the house wanted more why did they not go after more?  Why would they expect the Senate to do what they would not do?  It was their job to make the case, and if they have not made it and the president is acquitted, it is because they did not succeed in making their case.  That's not a technicality.  It is a failure on their part. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #268 on: January 29, 2020, 11:17:48 pm »
Kathy
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Why would they expect the Senate to do what they would not do?
Cause then the president has the chance to obstruct congress again if he stops people from responding to subpoenas.   It is not like they are in question of who they want to call.   The judge can also make rulings immediately.

If the president does not respond, then they can impeach him.  If he does respond then they can make a decision.
Obstructing due to some kind of technicality when they have the power to have all the facts that the house has led them too during their presentation and while the trial is going on would be wrong.  Going the other way may give a wrong outcome in my mind but I could be confident that when the senators gave their excuse, They would have did it with the facts and I could learn the facts with them so that come election, I will also be informed when I vote.
Cheers
gww

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #269 on: January 29, 2020, 11:34:38 pm »
Food for thought. Do we really think that President Trump was worried about Sleepy Joe Biden as a political opponent?  Or should we now call him ''Busy Bucks Joe''?  Take for instance the New Jersey rally set up for Mr Trump. There was an astonishing, whopping 175,000, yes, One hundred, seventy-five thousand applicants, for tickets at that rally! Yes in New Jersey, of all places, the Red state! Come on folks who are the dems trying to fool? Do you really think for one minute that Mr Trump was worried about sleepy Joe and subboranants investigated because of personal gain? Really? Remember, it was not just sleepy Joe that he wanted investigated in Ukraine.  It was any crook, all corruption, on either side of the isle or sea, not just in Ukraine as demonstrated and laid out by his defendants in the Senate trial. It was and is every country involved in corruption and money laundering etc there and other places that we aid. Surely you understand this? It was and is to ''drain the swamp!'' Just like he promised in his first campagaine. We the people get it and apparently so do many self thinking democratic and independent Americans. 
Shockingly for the democratic party and headquarters, 26 percent of all applicants for the New Jersey rally, wanting desperately to retain tickets, were registered democrats! Yes that is correct according to news sources. 10 percent were non voters from the last election! That is 36 percent of non voting (previously, non-rebublican supports), supporting the president and his policies in the New Jersey rally alone!!!! No wonder the democrats are scratching and clawing, panicking and grasping at any straw trying to stop Mr Trump, with their un-due charges. After all, what issues do they have to run on in the next Presidential election, excet hating Trump? What a grand show of support for Mr Trump, especially in New Jersey, they the dems, know what the election outcome will be if their ultimate election interference, meddling and tampering, now being demonstrated and masqueraded as  Impeachment; fails.

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #270 on: January 29, 2020, 11:49:17 pm »
ben framed
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Food for thought. Do we really think that President Trump was worried about Sleepy Joe Biden as a political opponent?
Food for thought, President nixon was up in the polls and won by a landslide but yet there was a break in.  People are funny that way.  Most people historically believe the right thing happened in that case.

To your other point.  Trump goes to the reddest places and draws a big crowd but goes to a sports event and gets booed.  We will all know what happens in november if not before.  I know what I have.  I have one vote which is what I should have.  Time will tell.
Cheers
gww

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #271 on: January 30, 2020, 08:10:59 am »
ben framed
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Food for thought. Do we really think that President Trump was worried about Sleepy Joe Biden as a political opponent?
Food for thought, President nixon was up in the polls and won by a landslide but yet there was a break in.  People are funny that way.  Most people historically believe the right thing happened in that case.

To your other point.  Trump goes to the reddest places and draws a big crowd but goes to a sports event and gets booed.  We will all know what happens in november if not before.  I know what I have.  I have one vote which is what I should have.  Time will tell.
Cheers
gww

Haa Haa ( I almost replied Ace, lol, had to look twice).  gww   I agree, Mr Liddy was wrong for breaking into the  watergate. Weather Mr Nixon authorized it or not. Just as Mr Clintons charges are not relevant now. Not relevant here in 2020 and this case, as clearly pointed out by Mr Trumps attorneys. Unfortunately Both pryor presidents were after personal gain. We know that breaking and entering is unlawful. What Mr Clinton did was Unfortunate and shameful. It was also shameful that he was not charged with selling secrets to our enemies instead of what he was charged with. That is of course the allegations of selling secrets were true? I do not think Mr Trump has sold secrets?

As for my point that you credited me, and thank you for the credit my friend;  (Hum, I thought I made several). Yes Mr Trump goes to the reddest places as well as red places and draws the largest crowds. The lovers of Old Glory Red, White, and Blue are anxious to hear him speak. Patriots of all descriptions and backgrounds, colors and races also. This is a movement larger than political lines, race, or gender. This is a movement of Americans of all descriptions. United with the hope of making America Great again for ALL citizens.  There is always exceptions of course, the unpatriotic kneelers for example, may still be grudge holders. But if you are referring to the Alabama-LSU game, the crowd clearly cheered for him, (Mr Trump). Of course not according to CNN. But as always, we must watch and learn for ourselves, can't trust those rascals. lol

Offline Acebird

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #272 on: January 30, 2020, 08:54:40 am »
What a grand show of support for Mr Trump, especially in New Jersey
Why would you mention New Jersey?  Trump campaigning on removing corruption and sighting New Jersey support is comical.  The governor wanted to be vice president so bad he could taste it.  Trump is no fool.  Two gangsters can't work together, there is no trust.
Trump is afraid of Putin, Xi Jinping, and Iran. 
So what does Trump have going for him as a leader?  A mess at the Mexican boarder, ridiculed by the Canadians, a fight with England, turning his back on the curds, a war crime in Iraq, bowing to Putin, being out foxed by Kim Jon-un.  And now coming up with the most ridiculous "peace" plan ever.  So he can add the Palestinians to his list of fears.  Especially the ones learning to fly in Fl.  Moving to FL is no safer then the big apple.  He needs to move to the desert to increase his safety.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #273 on: January 30, 2020, 09:00:55 am »
What a grand show of support for Mr Trump, especially in New Jersey
Why would you mention New Jersey?  Trump campaigning on removing corruption and sighting New Jersey support is comical.  The governor wanted to be vice president so bad he could taste it.  Trump is no fool.  Two gangsters can't work together, there is no trust.
Trump is afraid of Putin, Xi Jinping, and Iran. 
So what does Trump have going for him as a leader?  A mess at the Mexican boarder, ridiculed by the Canadians, a fight with England, turning his back on the curds, a war crime in Iraq, bowing to Putin, being out foxed by Kim Jon-un.  And now coming up with the most ridiculous "peace" plan ever.  So he can add the Palestinians to his list of fears.  Especially the ones learning to fly in Fl.  Moving to FL is no safer then the big apple.  He needs to move to the desert to increase his safety.

Good morning Ace, Having your coffee before you go to Mar-a-Lago (work)?  What desert would you suggest you and Mr Trump move too? Yall have already left NY I guess where he goes one you go all? After all the closer to work the better. lol
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 09:13:24 am by Ben Framed »

Offline Acebird

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #274 on: January 30, 2020, 09:39:40 am »
Area 51
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #275 on: January 30, 2020, 09:42:33 am »

Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #276 on: January 30, 2020, 11:59:50 am »
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Cause then the president has the chance to obstruct congress again if he stops people from responding to subpoenas.   It is not like they are in question of who they want to call.   The judge can also make rulings immediately.

If the president does not respond, then they can impeach him.  If he does respond then they can make a decision.
Obstructing due to some kind of technicality when they have the power to have all the facts that the house has led them too during their presentation and while the trial is going on would be wrong.  Going the other way may give a wrong outcome in my mind but I could be confident that when the senators gave their excuse, They would have did it with the facts and I could learn the facts with them so that come election, I will also be informed when I vote.

If both sides agree to allow the Chief Justice to make some of those calls, he can.  In the case of executive privilege, which the president has every right to claim, I do not think the Justice can make that call.  If there was a dispute, it would have to go to court.  Congress can't ding the president for asserting what is his right. 
It was considered with Clinton because he filed lawsuits over and over again.  It was discarded as a charge because this is a presidential right and the claim of abuse is subjective. 

But again, if the House has this airtight case they have presented, and that is their claim, why drag this out? Let the Senate vote on the case they have presented.  If they do not, that is on them.  They had every opportunity to go to court and compel witnesses and documents.

To be honest, I don't care if this goes on and ties up legislation forever.  The less they do, the less harm they do.     :wink:
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #277 on: January 30, 2020, 12:12:34 pm »
Kathy
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To be honest, I don't care if this goes on and ties up legislation forever.  The less they do, the less harm they do.

Finally!  We have finally found one thing that you and I agree on wholeheartedly.
Cheers
gww

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #278 on: January 30, 2020, 02:53:15 pm »
To be honest, I don't care if this goes on and ties up legislation forever.
I am concerned if this pauses confirmation of Federal judge positions.
Tom

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #279 on: January 30, 2020, 03:27:22 pm »
tom
Nothing stops the senate from conduction business prior to the supreme justice showing up.  The supreme justice is still doing his day job.
Cheers
gww