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Author Topic: Is impeachment close?  (Read 5720 times)

Offline iddee

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #220 on: January 26, 2020, 09:44:21 am »
""Most billionaires follow the law.  Trump does not.""   Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you do believe it.

Thank You, Mr. Schiff. Made up any more good ones this morning
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline jvalentour

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #221 on: January 26, 2020, 10:26:48 am »
Most billionaires follow the law.  Trump does not.  That is why he won't release them.  He is a gangster and most gangsters get caught by an IRS infraction. They have an intermediary do the criminal activity keeping their name out of the records.  But the criminal activity can not be hidden from tax evasion regardless of who works the books.

Posted by: Acebird


From the man who ONLY reads or views the BBC or PBS.  You have got to be kidding me.

The real reason Trump won't release his tax records is because the haters will manipulate the filings for their own purpose. 

Julian Assange was once asked why he didn't publish dirt on Trump.  He replied that Trumps whole life is already out there in public.

If there were any illegalities with Trumps tax returns don't you think one of Obama's or Andrew Cuomo's stooges would have already leaked them?  Yes, they would.  CNN would breathlessly announce the news (even before they read the returns).   The New York returns in Albany are there for the picking, and no leaks?  Maybe the returns are held in the same drawer as Obama's college records and they just can't be found?


Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #222 on: January 26, 2020, 09:51:08 pm »
 jvalentour
Quote
I suggest you educate yourself about Executive Privilege. 
I have a pet theory on john bolton and executive privilege.  Since privilege can not be used to cover wrong doing and john being a lawyer, I think he needs to testify so that when his book is vetted by the powers that be, they can not reduce the content by claiming privilege.  If he testifies, it becomes public knowlage and so not able to be redacted.

Cheers
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #223 on: January 27, 2020, 09:07:15 am »

The real reason Trump won't release his tax records is because the haters will manipulate the filings for their own purpose. 

More made up fear.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #224 on: January 27, 2020, 11:16:59 am »
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I have a pet theory on john bolton and executive privilege.  Since privilege can not be used to cover wrong doing and john being a lawyer, I think he needs to testify so that when his book is vetted by the powers that be, they can not reduce the content by claiming privilege.  If he testifies, it becomes public knowlage and so not able to be redacted.

Yes the courts have ruled that privilege can't be used to cover a crime, but we have no crime alleged.  If the house wanted those witnesses they could have gone to court to get them.  Do you have a pet theory on why the house didn't do that for any of the witnesses it now says it wants to hear from?
The Senate would have to do the same court thing to overcome the executive privilege claim. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline iddee

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #225 on: January 27, 2020, 11:18:20 am »
More crystal ball reading from Ace.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #226 on: January 27, 2020, 11:34:51 am »
Kathy
Quote
Do you have a pet theory on why the house didn't do that for any of the witnesses it now says it wants to hear from?
Yes, cause if the truth matters, they proved the case with what they had.  There is a crime against the constitution.  It is just a different court set up by the constitution prosecuting said crime.  They could use the courts if he was not president.  I see nothing in the constitution that says congress has to use the courts before the can exercise impeachment.  In fact, it says that congress has the sole power.
Cheers
gww

PS  The senate does not have to wait for courts if they don't want to.  They won't do it but do have the power to say by a two thirds vote that if witnesses are not provided, we will just vote to convict.

Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #227 on: January 27, 2020, 11:36:16 am »
Quote
More made up fear.

I don't think it has to do with anything other than he just doesn't want to give the nutters the satisfaction of demanding that he do something that is not required.
Many of us would have liked to have seen Obamas school records, especially his school registration, but it is not required and he did not produce it. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #228 on: January 27, 2020, 11:43:31 am »
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Yes, cause if the truth matters, they proved the case with what they had.  There is a crime against the constitution.  It is just a different court set up by the constitution prosecuting said crime.  They could use the courts if he was not president.  I see nothing in the constitution that says congress has to use the courts before the can exercise impeachment.  In fact, it says that congress has the sole power.

If they proved the case, then they didn't need witnesses and they don't need them now.
What is the crime against the constitution?

The branches are co-equal.  The congress can ask for stuff, but the president has the right to exert executive privilege for advisors and materials.  Congress and the president then go to court to get a ruling.  That is the constitutional way and the way it has been done in the past.  Congress does not have the right to stuff just because they want stuff. 

Congress has the right to impeach and they can do it with, or without anything from the WH.  This time they chose to do it without.  They used witnesses that had no first-hand knowledge of the things the democrats alleged.  In fact, all of them said they had no knowledge of a crime.
I am not sure how you get to "they proved the case", but if they did, then we ought to carry on and let the thing play out. 

And don't get me wrong.  I have nothing against calling witnesses.  The more the dem candidates for president are disrupted, the better.  I just don't see the point if the case has been made.

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #229 on: January 27, 2020, 11:44:14 am »
Kathy
Quote
Many of us would have liked to have seen Obamas school records, especially his school registration, but it is not required and he did not produce it.
Trump hasn't exactly made his school records public either. He put an used legal tactics to stop the school from being able to release his records also.
Cheers
gww

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #230 on: January 27, 2020, 11:57:28 am »
Kathy
Then 16 witnesses provided enough that you would have to leave common sense at the door to not see what was going on.  However, removing a president is hard for the party of the president and so it might take some extra witnesses to get enough pressure for them to be hit in the head with the truth rather then stick their heads in the sand and see nothing.  This is being addressed by the republican senators in a way that they are hoping enough proof does not come out that they can hide from it and not where they can know it.  They know that some portion of their base will not care even if worse is found out and will hold it against them if they do not protect the president.  The problem for them is the small amount that the truth might peal off of their supporters making protection a losing game. That has not happened but the more that comes out makes it harder to hide if done before they make the decision.  They lose the ability to say we did not know that when we made our decision.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #231 on: January 27, 2020, 12:31:46 pm »
Quote
Then 16 witnesses provided enough that you would have to leave common sense at the door to not see what was going on.

I am not exactly sure what you mean, but maybe a question will help.  What, exactly, do you think Trump is being impeached for?
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #232 on: January 27, 2020, 12:39:39 pm »
What, exactly, do you think Trump is being impeached for?
An unproven allegation that this is all related to Biden's bid for election in 2020 and nothing at all to do with his son realizing monetary gains due to his father's role as Vice President.
And the possibility of an entrapment foot fault for not cooperating with the House witch hunt.

Why Kathy, this is soooooo obvious.




Tom

Offline kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #233 on: January 27, 2020, 12:55:03 pm »
 
Quote
Biden's bid for election in 2020 and nothing at all to do with his son realizing monetary gains due to his father's role as Vice President.

I don't know if you saw the Peter Schweizer interview last night about the Bidens, but it's not just his son.  They had quite a family racket going on while Joe was VP. 

As Schweizer pointed out, there is no reason that the MSM has not done the very same research he has done, or, at the least, checked and reported on his research. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #234 on: January 28, 2020, 09:08:35 am »
Trump hasn't exactly made his school records public either.
Well actually he has.  One only needs to read his endless tweets and conclude his academic accomplishments were purchased not earned.  He solidifies that pretty much every day.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #235 on: January 28, 2020, 09:15:43 am »
They had quite a family racket going on while Joe was VP. 
Did you forget Trump brought his whole family and friends into our government with zero experience for any of the positions held?  Do you not understand that his daughter and son in law are using the presidency for exceptional personal gains?  This is classic Trump, I will accuse you of doing what I am already doing in public view!  Like I am ENTITLED TO IT and you are not.  Just like I am above the law and you are not.
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #236 on: January 28, 2020, 10:57:37 am »
... Do you not understand that his daughter and son in law are using the presidency for exceptional personal gains?  This is classic Trump, I will accuse you of doing what I am already doing in public view!  Like I am ENTITLED TO IT and you are not.  Just like I am above the law and you are not.

Is it possible to get some facts to back up those accusations? ... please!

While your looking for the facts, maybe you could explain why making such accusations without any supportive evidence [facts] is now ... "ok"? ... I mean, if we did that to Odumbo, well .... You'd be HOWLING with outrage.
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Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #237 on: January 28, 2020, 04:41:21 pm »
 :wink:
Tom

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #238 on: January 28, 2020, 04:45:07 pm »
So....what would it take for you to change your mind?
What question(s) would you ask either the Managers or the defense team that would matter to your conclusion - assuming it was answered honestly?
Tom

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #239 on: January 28, 2020, 05:58:48 pm »
Tom
I know you were not asking me but I will answer for me.  I am not sure my mind could be changed at this time.  I do know that having a scatter gun defense designed to get different reasons so that different people can pick their favorite one will not do it.  If they had a pure defense that discounted all but one defense and it rang true, maybe.

Instead they say nobody heard it from the prez.  If somebody did and they think it is bad it is still not enough.  Nothing is enough.  It was just opposition research.  The call was perfect (mostly the worst due to all the background action around the call).  The process was bad.   Hiding more facts or trying to keep them behind closed doors and so the basic "stick you head in the sand and pretend you didn't hear it.  This has been the defense.

Now that they have used them all, it would be pretty hard to believe just one.  I might still want to nail him but at least if they would just pick one defense rather then just throw crap against the was to see what sticks, I might have more respect for the perspective realizing that people can have a different position on what a fact means to them..  I would not, however, have respect for a nothing is impeachable argument from those who pursued impeachment hard in the past for less then has happened now.

In the end, they will do what they want and I will decide based on that who is a hero and who is a chump.
Cheers
gww