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Author Topic: Is impeachment close?  (Read 10230 times)

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #200 on: January 25, 2020, 12:14:44 pm »
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I would not have too much confidence in the defense.  The first thing out of their mouth was that democrats left out the president on the transcript saying that we gave more then everybody and was good to ukraine.  The transcript was on line with both sides saying read it.  Then they put a clip of adam shiff paraphrasing the transcript where he said "we been good to you, we gave more to you than every one".  To me, saying that something did not happen and then showing that it did would not be a great defense.  Now that is funny.

I think I made an assumption in error with you.  I assumed you had watched the house impeachment hearings.  If you think Schiff was paraphrasing, it is obvious you did not.  He made up what he read into the record.  In other words, he read a lie into the official record.  Pretty sure the house has some rules about that, but IDK what they are...

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #201 on: January 25, 2020, 12:34:12 pm »
If I were presenting for the defense, I would certainly open and close with a montage of Shiff's documented lies and quantify the amount of time he spent speaking for the managers. Show the testimony from the house witnesses that he excluded which contradicted his presentation.

How can an objective person trust his words? How insulting to the intelligence of the audience! Big mistake by the Democrats. Likely fatal to the effort. That gives the Republicans all they need to vote against impeachment related to quid pro quo.
Then it all falls apart if the defense shows how the whole episode is a string of events done in bad faith starting with the investigation of the 2016 campaign.


Tom

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #202 on: January 25, 2020, 12:58:47 pm »
Incognito
So far what you listed is the defense being used. 

On the rest, I read the transcript and believe shiff's paraphrasing got it correct and he said he was not reading the transcript which all the poeple on the committee already had access to.  We discussed this once before I believe kathy.  I don't hang out as much as I used to cause I am too lazy to keep up when getting into big discussions.  The older I get the harder is is to type.  Much easier just to watch tv.
Cheers
gww

Offline jvalentour

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #203 on: January 25, 2020, 01:15:17 pm »
gww,
I suggest you educate yourself about Executive Privilege.  Please click on the link and read the Wiki article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_privilege

You should also know, in matters regarding disputes between the legislative branch and executive branch , the
Supreme Court will expedite a hearing.  Additionally, when a case is is presented to the Supreme Court only four Justices are needed to to accept the case.  I suspect Reps Schiff and Nadler knew they would not win a court challenge to the President's claim of Executive Privilege as they could not find four Justices to hear their case.

Had Shiff and Nadler pursued the correct action thru the Supreme Court, and been successful, then the current Impeachment Hearing would be legitimate.  As they are now, nothing but politics and abuse of power.

As others have repeatedly stated on this site.  The three branches of government are equals. 

And by the way, thank you for the edit.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #204 on: January 25, 2020, 01:33:30 pm »
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On the rest, I read the transcript and believe shiff's paraphrasing got it correct

I don't know how you got there, but if you don't mind just a little typing pull up the transcript of the call and compare it to what Schiff put into the record.

If the transcript was the problem, then there was no reason to lie...although he often lies when there is no reason to lie, so my argument may not be a good one.

Wait!  I"ll help you out.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/25/trump-ukraine-phone-call-transcript-text-pdf-1510770


starts at 4:13
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #205 on: January 25, 2020, 01:58:43 pm »
Yes kathy, I listen and can see how he can say this is the essence of what the transcript says.  When I read the transcript, this is also what it implys to me.  If I were to nit pick, I guess you could say when adam says don't call me, I will call you and in the transcript, trump says call me.  However, since the ukrane president mentions giuliani
in the transcript first, it shows that more conversations have went on in the background.  I think the context you leave out is the fact that shiff was reading the essence of what the transcript said to people that already had the transcript in their possession.  So it is disingenuous to say that adam shiff  was going to convince those congress men that what he said was what the transcript said.  My view is what he said was putting the meaning of the transcript into context.  I read and listened and think that taking the position that adam shiff was trying to do more then put perspective to what every one had rather then saying that he was reading the transcript is calling those who hear that as being too dumb or hoping they are too dumb to know what he was doing.  Who is really trying to mislead who.
If the detractors say I want to come to a different conclusion on what trump may have been doing, that would be fine.  To say adam changed the transcript when they all had a copy and calling him a liar about what it said is just smoke and mirrors.
Cheers
gww

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #206 on: January 25, 2020, 02:22:04 pm »
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Yes kathy, I listen and can see how he can say this is the essence of what the transcript says.  When I read the transcript, this is also what it implys to me.

Essence = boiling down of facts
Implies = opinion

But hey, you know what they say about opinions.  We all have them   :wink:
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #207 on: January 25, 2020, 02:23:57 pm »
Kathy
My point exactly. :wink:
Cheers
gww

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #208 on: January 25, 2020, 02:57:47 pm »
Incognito
So far what you listed is the defense being used. 

I did not know that it started early. I regret missing most of it. I saw about a half hour of it starting when they showed Schiff lying to the media.
Tom

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #209 on: January 25, 2020, 03:04:22 pm »

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If that is a good argument, Maybe you should vote for mike bloomberg.

He wants you guns   :grin:

Well ... he can have them ... once I've no further use for them.  :cheesy: :cool:
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #210 on: January 25, 2020, 03:14:53 pm »
Ace, I know I question your intelligence now and then, but I have NEVER thought you believed a billionaire filed a truthful tax return. Heck, my 4 year old great grand daughter knows better than that.

Billionaires are under the highest scrutiny level there is. Of course they file truthful tax returns - they couldn't get away with not doing so. ... but ...

... Any billionaire that put their assets under their own name, and filed taxes on them as personal income - would be an idiot. ...

Our government wrote the tax laws. Our government wrote "loop holes" into the tax laws - on purpose. Anyone not using those loop holes - is giving money to the government that isn't owed. ... the government loves people like that.

Billionaires (and most other "rich") don't get rich or stay rich - without making full use of all aspects of the tax code. ... just ask the Clintons how a 501C works. (I could give MANY more examples). ...
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #211 on: January 25, 2020, 04:32:16 pm »
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Billionaires are under the highest scrutiny level there is. Of course they file truthful tax returns -

And they don't do their own taxes.  They hire people to find all those loopholes for them.  The rest of us have to find our own!   :grin:
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline iddee

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #212 on: January 25, 2020, 04:53:28 pm »
Cool, it may be different to you, but to me, deceit is just as untruthful as lies.
Hiding income is, in my opinion, untruthful.

So is hiding expenses, just ask Soros.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #213 on: January 25, 2020, 08:26:39 pm »
Cool, it may be different to you, but to me, deceit is just as untruthful as lies.
Hiding income is, in my opinion, untruthful.

So is hiding expenses, just ask Soros.

Iddee - when the government says you can deduct the payments on a Leased Vehicle from your profits on your tax forms - is that deceit? ... your still out the money.

You can deduct up to 15% (I think it is) from taxation if you give the money to [certain] charity(s) such as a church  - is that deceit? ... your still out the money.

Is moving to a "no personal income tax" state deceit? Or just good sense. (For instance to get away from California's 12.3% income tax).

Is giving bonuses to employees instead of giving the government taxes cheating? ... or morally superior, by taking care of the people that made the money.

Is funding a government approved Retirement Plan out of profits, for all employees (they earned that money) - instead of paying taxes on it - dishonest? ... not to me.

If the government gives tax exemptions on certain investments, is that "cheating on your taxes"? ... or smart with your money?

... I could fill up pages of questions - that I fail to see how they are dishonest in any way. Knowing the tax laws, and using them in the best possible way, isn't cheating, or dishonest, or lying - at least not that I can see.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #214 on: January 25, 2020, 08:38:54 pm »
... So is hiding expenses, just ask Soros.

P.s. - I'm not sure why someone would hide expenses, or even want to - as this would cause one to pay more in taxes.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #215 on: January 25, 2020, 08:54:21 pm »
... So is hiding expenses, just ask Soros.

P.s. - I'm not sure why someone would hide expenses, or even want to - as this would cause one to pay more in taxes.

I feel sure that if I am wrong iddee will gladly correct me. Some my hide expenses because said expenses may have been used for dirty work, such as providing money for meddling in an election, or seeking to overthrow a government for instance?
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline iddee

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #216 on: January 25, 2020, 09:47:02 pm »
I'll buy your house for 10 thousand dollars and slip you 60 thousand under the table. You spend it carefully and don't get caught. I can get rid of 60 thousand dirty money I got for getting that man a municipal contract and you can take a tax loss on your house rather than showing a profit.

Now do you understand?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #217 on: January 25, 2020, 09:48:44 pm »
... So is hiding expenses, just ask Soros.

P.s. - I'm not sure why someone would hide expenses, or even want to - as this would cause one to pay more in taxes.

I feel sure that if I am wrong iddee will gladly correct me. Some my hide expenses because said expenses may have been used for dirty work, such as providing money for meddling in an election, or seeking to overthrow a government for instance?

Ah yes Phillip. Hadn't thought about that. Guess I don't think that way. That probably is what Iddee meant. ... for the record - I despise Soros. ... I just didn't understand Iddee's post. Thanks for the clarification.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #218 on: January 25, 2020, 09:52:18 pm »
I'll buy your house for 10 thousand dollars and slip you 60 thousand under the table. You spend it carefully and don't get caught. I can get rid of 60 thousand dirty money I got for getting that man a municipal contract and you can take a tax loss on your house rather than showing a profit.

Now do you understand?

Yes Iddee - now I understand. That kind of dirty "stuff" is just plain evil (at minimum). Apologies - I'm just not programmed to think that way. I thought you were trashing honest folks for using the tax code to its best advantage. Thanks for helping me understand your very valid point.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Acebird

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #219 on: January 26, 2020, 09:22:52 am »
Ace, I know I question your intelligence now and then, but I have NEVER thought you believed a billionaire filed a truthful tax return.
Most billionaires follow the law.  Trump does not.  That is why he won't release them.  He is a gangster and most gangsters get caught by an IRS infraction. They have an intermediary do the criminal activity keeping their name out of the records.  But the criminal activity can not be hidden from tax evasion regardless of who works the books.
Brian Cardinal
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