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Author Topic: Is impeachment close?  (Read 7836 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2019, 08:28:55 pm »
Iddee I know you can not hear, but look up the following on youtube, start playing and simply click the CC button. It will display in closed caption. And this is not Fox, its OAN. Even though I am thinking Tucker Carlson on Fox also addressed this.
The 2nd Amendment Under Attack in Virginia



For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline iddee

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #101 on: December 19, 2019, 08:37:22 pm »
I'm familiar with what is going on in Virginia. I also know similar has been going on since Matt Dillon made them check their guns at the door when going into the Long Branch Saloon. I'm not worried. It will not last long.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #102 on: December 19, 2019, 08:45:43 pm »
I'm familiar with what is going on in Virginia. I also know similar has been going on since Matt Dillon made them check their guns at the door when going into the Long Branch Saloon. I'm not worried. It will not last long.

Matt was a republican?  He didn't mind most of the time. He would meet them in the saloon, or on the street and draw that big gun if needed.   I think it was Wyatt Earp that checked the guns. But your point is WELL taken.   :grin:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #103 on: December 19, 2019, 09:35:42 pm »
I have relatives in VA.  After the election, a couple of them said not to worry.  VA was at least purple and the govt would not risk passing a lot of leftist laws.  You don't know how hard it has been for me not to say I TOLD YOU SO.  VA is like most states with leftist governments.  Most of it is not crazy, but the part that is makes the rules for everyone.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #104 on: December 19, 2019, 11:18:32 pm »
Interesting to watch, whatever the end may be.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 12:42:23 am by TheHoneyPump »
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #105 on: December 20, 2019, 11:55:08 am »
Quote
Interesting to watch, whatever the end may be.

You have to give us credit for being entertaining   :cheesy:
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #106 on: December 20, 2019, 01:24:29 pm »
It is a never ending story of the Democrats. As soon as they get control they want to take all the power from the citizens.
Na

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #107 on: December 20, 2019, 01:32:43 pm »
""how long can we expect to be able to enjoy shooting? ""

That's an easy one.   "For the rest of my life."

That may be just after they pass the law, or when I die naturally, but as long as I'm living, I will have my guns and ammo

[10 thumbs-up]!  :cool:
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #108 on: December 20, 2019, 01:57:59 pm »
It is a never ending story of the Democrats. As soon as they get control they want to take all the power from the citizens.
Na

Jim I think you are correct, and the business of the country be cast aside. Thus the name. (Do nothing Democrats), but one thing they are good at! Stifle forward progress of the nation..  At this they are the Champions!!! There slogan should be.  (Let?s trash America, Together we can!)
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #109 on: December 20, 2019, 02:58:06 pm »
"You are free to criticize him, to find his personal conduct distasteful, but ask whether this is the moment when, for the first time in our history, the actions of a president have so put at risk the government the framers created that there is only one solution."

That question is as valid now as it was when Charles Ruff, the fourth and final Watergate special prosecutor, asked the senators that question when defending Bill Clinton during his trial in the Senate.
Tom

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #110 on: December 20, 2019, 03:14:43 pm »
Impeached:
Andrew Johnson, Bill Clinton, Donald Trump

Impeachment considered against:
John Tyler - vote failed , James Buchanan - (corruption, but not enough to warrant impeachment - no vote), Ulysses S. Grant- (corruption - no vote), Herbert Hoover (resolutions submitted twice), Harry Truman (firing MacArthur), Richard Nixon (resigned when imminent - no vote), Ronald Regan (Iran-contra scandal) & George W. Bush (Iraq invasion in 2003)


From Impeachment, An American History by Jon Meacham, Peter Baker, Timothy Naftali and Jeffrey A. Engel
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 03:57:13 pm by incognito »
Tom

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #111 on: December 20, 2019, 03:56:32 pm »
What are high crimes and (high) misdemeanors?
FYI - if you asked yourself the same question.

More passages from the same source, Impeachment, An American History by Jon Meacham, Peter Baker, Timothy Naftali and Jeffrey A. Engel (forgive me for not attributing quotes):
  • Those a president may commit against the entire American people
  • Impeachments are confined to political crimes - James Wilson in 1801
  • impeachable offenses did not reside with the sphere of ordinary jurisprudence - James Wilson in 1801
  • offenses against the public interest which need not be indictable under criminal laws - Hugh Williamson
  • an impeachable offense need not be illegal at all
  • offences which are committed by public men in violation of their public trust - Unidentified early Supreme Court justice
  • are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself - Alexander Hamilton
  • perpetrated with sinister intent to harm the republic for personal gain
  • required "wicked motive". "The President," is to be "personally responsible for any abuse of the great trust reposed in him." - Supreme Court Justice James Iredell
  • scheming to harm the republic or to place one's own interest above the people's-the direct opposite of George Washington's virtue
  • "...Whatever a majority of the house of representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history." - Gerald Ford
  • "It is like pornography", Hyde said. "You know it when you see it, but you have a hard time defining it."
As Virginia's Edmund Randolph explained the clause to his state's ratifying convention,"No man ever thought of impeaching a man for an opinion," or even for making a mistake, so long as the error came while in honest search of an ideal course. Merely being bad a the job did not demand one's impeachment. Undesirable yes; despicable perhaps; but not impeachable. Neither were proof of clear mistakes cause for impeachment. "It would be impossible to discover whether the error in opinion resulted for a willful mistake of the heart," Randolph elaborated, "or an involuntary fault of the head."


And in my observation is where we come to the fork in the road. Prosecutors say Trump's actions were for personal gain against a political rival. Defenders say Trump's actions were part of his swamp draining effort pledged during his campaign.
So, until there is the smoking gun proving sinister intent (like Nixon's tape recordings), in my mind, Trump in entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 04:36:33 pm by incognito »
Tom

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #112 on: December 20, 2019, 04:24:13 pm »
What are high crimes and (high) misdemeanors?
FYI - if you asked yourself the same question.

More passages from the same source, Impeachment, An American History by Jon Meacham, Peter Baker, Timothy Naftali and Jeffrey A. Engel (forgive me for not attributing quotes):
  • Those a president may commit against the entire American people
  • Impeachments are confined to political crimes - James Wilson in 1801
  • impeachable offenses did not reside with the sphere of ordinary jurisprudence - James Wilson in 1801
  • offenses against the public interest which need not be indictable under criminal laws - Hugh Williamson
  • an impeachable offense need not be illegal at all
  • offences which are committed by public men in violation of their public trust - Unidentified early Supreme Court justice
  • are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself - Alexander Hamilton
  • perpetrated with sinister intent to harm the republic for personal gain
  • required "wicked motive". "The President," is to be "personally responsible for any abuse of the great trust reposed in him." - Supreme Court Justice James Iredell
  • "...Whatever a majority of the house of representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history." - Gerald Ford
As Virginia's Edmund Randolph explained the clause to his state's ratifying convention,"No man ever thought of impeaching a man for an opinion," or even for making a mistake, so long as the error came while in honest search of an ideal course. Merely being bad a the job did not demand one's impeachment. Undesirable yes; despicable perhaps; but not impeachable. Neither were proof of clear mistakes cause for impeachment. "It would be impossible to discover whether the error in opinion resulted for a willful mistake of the heart," Randolph elaborated, "or an involuntary fault of the head."


And in my observation is where we come to the fork in the road. Prosecutors say Trump's actions were for personal gain against a political rival. Defenders say Trump's actions were part of his swamp draining effort pledged during his campaign.
So, until there is the smoking gun proving sinister intent (like Nixon's tape recordings), in my mind, Trump in entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

Good post Tom. Just reinforces this was a (political) assassination as all the honest world knows. Which clearly shows the real abuse of power came from the House of Representatives.



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For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #113 on: December 20, 2019, 04:48:01 pm »
Let me follow up with one last point.
Nixon's motives were not discovered until he provided information (the tapes) to the various investigators that were going on at the time (4 of them) after the Supreme Court decided against him. (Unites Stats v. Nixon)
Clinton was also forced to provide information after being ordered to by the courts (Clinton v. Jones). Kenneth Starr was able to get statements from White House aides, secret service, and government lawyers using United States v. Nixon.

Donald Trump's resistance to provide information was never tested by a court action. So I do not know if it is too soon to charge him with obstruction at this point in time. Legal precedent is not on his side.
That being said, it is clear Nancy Pelosi was not going to let 2019 house session end without an impeachment vote.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 05:01:44 pm by incognito »
Tom

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #114 on: December 20, 2019, 04:58:01 pm »
Let me follow up with one last point.
Nixon's motives were not discovered until he provided information (the tapes) to the various investigators that were going on at the time (4 of them) after the Supreme Court decided against him.
Clinton was also forced to provide information after being ordered to by the courts following the Nixon ruling.

Donald Trump's resistance to provide information was never tested by a court action. So I do not know if it is too soon to charge him with obstruction at this point in time. Legal precedent is not on his side.
That being said, it is clear Nancy Pelosi was not going to let 2019 house session end without an impeachment vote.

What you said is true, however the democrats in this case did not challenge in court any cards the president may or may not have had held close to his vest . If the do nothing democrats were so sure, why did they not take this to the supreme court clarifying their minds and the minds of the American People? Using any opportunity to make their case to we the people, or to clear this up?  I think we all know the answer to that one?  And notice that this time I said the democrats, I did not say the House because not one Republican went along with this obvious hit job, as a matter of fact one of the democrats was so disgusted that he is leaving the democratic party, which is in the house majority, to join the house minority! Which is no small thing.... What does that tell us?



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For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #115 on: December 20, 2019, 05:09:22 pm »

What you said is true, however the democrats in this case did not challenge in court any cards the president may or may not have had held close to his vest . If the do nothing democrats were so sure, why did they not take this to the supreme court clarifying their minds and the minds of the American People? Using any opportunity to make their case to we the people, or to clear this up?  I think we all know the answer to that one?
Arguably they should not have to go to court to enforce what has been decided already. They sort of got him on that one.

That being said. This is a political trial, not a civil or criminal trial. The juror/judge senators are entitled to set their own rules. The framers of the constitution intentionally gave them that right considering the circumstances.


Ultimately, it is the will of the people pressuring their senator representatives on what the outcome will be. 


And the framers provided that a sentence less than removal, like censure, could be the result if convicted.


Tom

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #116 on: December 20, 2019, 05:12:06 pm »

What you said is true, however the democrats in this case did not challenge in court any cards the president may or may not have had held close to his vest . If the do nothing democrats were so sure, why did they not take this to the supreme court clarifying their minds and the minds of the American People? Using any opportunity to make their case to we the people, or to clear this up?  I think we all know the answer to that one?
Arguably they should not have to go to court to enforce what has been decided already. They sort of got him on that one.

That being said. This is a political trial, not a civil or criminal trial. The juror/judge senators are entitled to set their own rules. The framers of the constitution intentionally gave them that right considering the circumstances.


Ultimately, it is the will of the people pressuring their senator representatives on what the outcome will be. 


And the framers provided that a sentence less than removal, like censure, could be the result if convicted.

I said that and more.
quoting myself.
'What you said is true, however the democrats in this case did not challenge in court any cards the president may or may not have had held close to his vest . If the do nothing democrats were so sure, why did they not take this to the supreme court clarifying their minds and the minds of the American People? Using any opportunity to make their case to we the people, or to clear this up?  I think we all know the answer to that one?  And notice that this time I said the democrats, I did not say the House because not one Republican went along with this obvious hit job, as a matter of fact one of the democrats was so disgusted that he is leaving the democratic party, which is in the house majority, to join the house minority! Which is no small thing.... What does that tell us? ''

And again I agree with you the impeachment had already been decided. Two and one half years ago according to Nancy P.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline incognito

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #117 on: December 20, 2019, 05:13:08 pm »
Remember that Clinton was guilty of perjury and the senators did not remove him.
Apparently perjury was not deemed a HIGH crime, just a crime.
Tom

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #118 on: December 20, 2019, 05:21:19 pm »
Remember that Clinton was guilty of perjury and the senators did not remove him.
Apparently perjury was not deemed a HIGH crime, just a crime.

I see your point but tell that to Roger Stone, who is facing the rest of his life in prison for the charge of perjury, as he went back the second day after testifying before congress an amended his inaccuracy after his testimony. Which is legal and means he did not purger himself. Next came his trial,  go back at look at who was on the jury and their background. Astonishing!




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« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 05:32:16 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Is impeachment close?
« Reply #119 on: December 20, 2019, 06:32:00 pm »
Quote
So I do not know if it is too soon to charge him with obstruction at this point in time. Legal precedent is not on his side.

As far as exerting executive privilege goes, the precedent is on his side.  If the House had decided to go to court and then he'd not followed the ruling that would have been different.  Obstruction of Congress by a president claiming executive privilege is not a thing.  If it was, every president would be guilty.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville