Author Topic: Is impeachment close? (Read 7721 times)

cidersabuzzin · « **on:** May 30, 2019, 04:47:19 am »

Sounds as if Mr Trump is in limbo land

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48454682

cider

sawdstmakr · « **Reply #1 on:** May 30, 2019, 09:52:10 am »

What makes you think that. We still have a Republican controlled Senate. Only the senate can impeach the President. You also have to an actual offense.
Jim Altmiller

Kathyp · « **Reply #2 on:** May 30, 2019, 11:46:22 am »

Muellers job was not to exonerate the president. It was to find a crime if one existed and then charge or list the crimes for Congress to deal with. We have good examples of how this works from both the Nixon and Clinton investigations. In both cases, the crimes were listed and it was left to Congress to deal with it. People other than the president were charged and taken to court.

In this case, the only crimes having to do with "collusion" or election interference were listed in indictments brought against Russians. The other crimes were mostly process crimes and had nothing to do with collusion or Russian interference. The exception was Mannafort, and his crimes had nothing to do with Trump or the election.

In this country, as in your country, there is a presumption of innocence. If there is not enough evidence to prove a crime you are innocent. Mueller listed some hearsay stuff that Trump said, but there were no follow on actions, and intent can't be proved. Obstruction requires intent and action. One of Clintons crimes was obstruction and Starr showed how he had both intent and action.

Impeachment can be done absent the above proof. Even though it is a legal proceeding within Congress and has different rules, it is not a guilty or innocent thing because it requires 2/3rds of the Senate to finalize and remove from office. Impeachment can pass without the kind of legal proof that is required in court. In this case, there is no danger of the Senate finding 2/3 of the members to approve it and if Mueller could not find proof of malfeasance, the Congress will not.

There are at least two other investigations going on into how this all got started and what the FBI and CIA did. It is likely that the lawbreaking took place within the investigation. It seems the Brits might have helped.

One of the reasons Trump did not earlier declassify the info is that he was asked not to as it would embarrass or impact our relationships with foreign intel agencies. It's one of those things that ought to have caught the attention of the press, but did not.

There is far more to this story than you are reading in the MSM.

CoolBees · « **Reply #3 on:** May 30, 2019, 12:39:39 pm »

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Kathyp · « **Reply #4 on:** May 30, 2019, 01:32:19 pm »

It goes with the left getting all they want in court rather than by way of elections or convincing the people that they are right. If you look at most of the things they have pushed for and gotten, few were done by way of convincing people. Most were done by finding courts that were sympathetic and suing.

When you force an idea on people rather than convincing them that the idea has merit, you forever cause a point of contention in the population. They don't care. It is easier than doing the hard work.

CoolBees · « **Reply #5 on:** May 30, 2019, 04:26:23 pm »

Quote from: kathyp on May 30, 2019, 01:32:19 pm

It goes with the left getting all they want in court rather than by way of elections or convincing the people that they are right. If you look at most of the things they have pushed for and gotten, few were done by way of convincing people. Most were done by finding courts that were sympathetic and suing.

When you force an idea on people rather than convincing them that the idea has merit, you forever cause a point of contention in the population. They don't care. It is easier than doing the hard work.

Yes ... but ... the left can't win in the court of "public opinion", because their policy's are so screwed up.

Kathyp · « **Reply #6 on:** May 30, 2019, 04:45:24 pm »

Quote

Yes ... but ... the left can't win in the court of "public opinion", because their policy's are so screwed up.

That's true of a lot of things, but not all. Take gay marriage. More and more states were allowing it or some form of partner recognition that was equal for tax and legal issues. Rather than be patient and work on the rest of the population to do the same, they forced it in court. Now...I don't really care if a state make that kind of choice. Mine did in spite of a state constitutional amendment that marriage was between a man and a woman. They chose to ignore the constitution and allow gay marriage. Even in my state though, it was done by way of the courts and not by a vote of the people. I DO care that something that was traditionally handled by states, and is not in the Constitution of the US, was taken on by SCOTUS and forced on the entire country. Abortion is the same thing. It should have been left to states.

There is very little in the Constitution that can be interpreted to allow the federal courts or the federal government to interfere in what states decide. Interestingly, this is the same argument used by states that are allowing legal marijuana even though it is against federal law.

Acebird · « **Reply #7 on:** May 31, 2019, 08:57:34 am »

Impeachment is not possible because the republicans have decided to collude with Trump to save their party. However if the democrats start proceedings and air to the american people like in the Nixon era, Trump will not get re-elected. Similar to Clinton. Constitutions don't mean anything anymore. We are in the era of the gangsters again. The next big stock market crash will bring back the democracy. Unfortunately it might not come til after another senseless war.

sawdstmakr · « **Reply #8 on:** May 31, 2019, 10:35:43 am »

Ace,
It was a stock market crash that started the destruction of our Republic. It was when the democratic president started us on the way to socialism.
Jim Altmiller

Ben Framed · « **Reply #9 on:** May 31, 2019, 03:49:18 pm »

Quote from: Acebird on May 31, 2019, 08:57:34 am

Impeachment is not possible because the republicans have decided to collude with Trump to save their party.

Not to save the party, but to spare the country from certain ruin that was well on its way! Not only from Democrats but Republican Neo-Cons as well. In other words, (The Swamp) if you will.

Acebird · « **Reply #10 on:** May 31, 2019, 03:59:56 pm »

The swamp is alive and well. I don't see that changing without a revolution.

Acebird · « **Reply #11 on:** May 31, 2019, 04:14:05 pm »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on May 31, 2019, 10:35:43 am

It was when the democratic president started us on the way to socialism.
Jim Altmiller

Jim socialism is the only way out of a crash that was created by capitalism. Capitalism breeds greed. It works for a while for a few until the bubble burst then you immediately see the capitalist wanting socialism for themselves, no one else because they are basically greedy and don't care about anyone else. There is no system in the world that can sustain pure capitalism or pure socialism. Our country grew strong because we had a good balance that is now gone. What really hurt our country is socialism for the capitalist not socialism for the poor.

iddee · « **Reply #12 on:** May 31, 2019, 04:43:14 pm »

Socialism only works when it's for the can nots. It will never work when it is for the will nots. That's where the dems become the dums.

Acebird · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2019, 08:30:24 am »

Quote from: iddee on May 31, 2019, 04:43:14 pm

Socialism only works when it's for the can nots. It will never work when it is for the will nots. That's where the dems become the dums.

Both parties line their pockets with the groups they represent.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #14 on:** June 01, 2019, 09:41:00 am »

Quote from: Acebird on May 31, 2019, 04:14:05 pm

Quote from: sawdstmakr on May 31, 2019, 10:35:43 am
It was when the democratic president started us on the way to socialism.
Jim Altmiller

Jim socialism is the only way out of a crash that was created by capitalism. Capitalism breeds greed. It works for a while for a few until the bubble burst then you immediately see the capitalist wanting socialism for themselves, no one else because they are basically greedy and don't care about anyone else. There is no system in the world that can sustain pure capitalism or pure socialism. Our country grew strong because we had a good balance that is now gone. What really hurt our country is socialism for the capitalist not socialism for the poor.

No, our government was set up and based on the principles of Gods Word, though this fact is common knowledge, it is denied, despised, and rejected by many. Our founding fathers did not hide this fact and made it plain time and time again. A corrupt and godless bunch will take advantage of our type government.

Our Constitution was made only fora moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
John Adams

iddee · « **Reply #15 on:** June 01, 2019, 09:54:38 am »

""Both parties line their pockets with the groups they represent.""

While I agree with that, I would much rather line the pockets of hard workers who produce, than lazy do nothings that only produce trash for others to clean up.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #16 on:** June 01, 2019, 10:23:23 am »

Quote from: iddee on June 01, 2019, 09:54:38 am

""Both parties line their pockets with the groups they represent.""

While I agree with that, I would much rather line the pockets of hard workers who produce, than lazy do nothings that only produce trash for others to clean up.

Yes they do. Again goes back to the type government that our founding fathers set up. A government created for a moral and religious people. A people who is neither moral nor religious, will reject said principles, therefore playing into the hands of the greedy, the corrupt, and the selfish. Which enables these greedy, corrupt, and selfish, to slowly chisel away chip by chip constantly the good government basics by, opposing forces until one day, we will no longer have what was prepared for us by our founding fathers, which have been under attack lately by the left as a group of white men! These founders were very wise men no matter what there color. Yes, now they are chiseling away at the very founding fathers themselves! Shame

Acebird · « **Reply #17 on:** June 01, 2019, 11:32:35 am »

Quote from: iddee on June 01, 2019, 09:54:38 am

""Both parties line their pockets with the groups they represent.""

While I agree with that, I would much rather line the pockets of hard workers who produce, than lazy do nothings that only produce trash for others to clean up.

There is where we differ. I do not take a liking to lining anyone's pocket because none of them are hard workers.

cidersabuzzin · « **Reply #18 on:** June 01, 2019, 12:05:21 pm »

Quote from: Ben Framed on June 01, 2019, 09:41:00 am

Quote from: Acebird on May 31, 2019, 04:14:05 pm
Quote from: sawdstmakr on May 31, 2019, 10:35:43 am
It was when the democratic president started us on the way to socialism.
Jim Altmiller

Jim socialism is the only way out of a crash that was created by capitalism. Capitalism breeds greed. It works for a while for a few until the bubble burst then you immediately see the capitalist wanting socialism for themselves, no one else because they are basically greedy and don't care about anyone else. There is no system in the world that can sustain pure capitalism or pure socialism. Our country grew strong because we had a good balance that is now gone. What really hurt our country is socialism for the capitalist not socialism for the poor.

No, our government was set up and based on the principles of Gods Word, though this fact is common knowledge, it is denied, despised, and rejected by many. Our founding fathers did not hide this fact and made it plain time and time again. A corrupt and godless bunch will take advantage of our type government.

Our Constitution was made only fora moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
John Adams

Ben What do you make of my post "TV Televangelists" re your "A corrupt and godless bunch will take advantage of our government"?
cider

CoolBees · « **Reply #19 on:** June 01, 2019, 12:13:46 pm »

Phillip - very well said.

Cider - you [seem to] specialize in finding the exception to the norm. From beekeeping to politics - there are always "norms" and always exceptions to them. There a good Christian people in this country - and there are people who pretend to be Good Christians for the sake of a dollar, and/or power. The later are not the norm.