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Author Topic: Why we need gun regulations  (Read 3176 times)

Offline hannabee

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Why we need gun regulations
« on: March 18, 2019, 01:22:59 am »
Hello, as of right now, my best friends mom was killed in the Vegas shooting, one of my good friends just graduated parkland highschool last year and texted me from the Walmart she was hiding in during the shooting, and people still think that guns are not the problem? I'm sorry but children are DYING here and I think that we should put peoples lives before your guns.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2019, 05:11:29 am »
Hanna, I have owned numerous guns for nearly 60 years. NOT ONE of them have ever shot anyone. If guns, rather than people, are the problem, please explain to me why mine are so nice and others go around killing people.

If you agree people, not guns, are he problem, why do you want to take away the good people's only protection?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2019, 09:04:12 am »
Hanna,
England took the Guns away but now they have a serious problem with people being stabbed to death with knives.
Cars kill far more people than guns. Even doctors and nurses kill far more people through negligence than guns do. Are you going remove all cars on America?s roads? What about doctors. Then you say that doctors save people?s lives. So do guns every day but the media never report these incedents. They want to unarm America. Guns are the only thing that protects us from government people that want total control over you.
Jim

Offline salvo

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2019, 12:08:34 am »
Hi Hannabee,

Welcome to beekeeping. I see you've posted just a few times,... and jumped right into a more interesting sub-forum. Take a deep breath. There are all sorts of opinions in the world. Hang in there.

It appears that you're young (my friend's mom,... a friend from Parkland). You have my empathy. Two high profile crimes have touched your life. Horrible odds. There are many horrible things in this world.

If you knew any of us as mentors or members of your club, fellow church members, you'd know us as nice beekeepers, nice people. You'd likely never know of our more personal hobbies or lifestyles.

I promise you that no one's firearms from this forum will hurt you or your friends. None of our cars will hurt you either. None of us will kidnap you or anyone you know. We will never break into you home or rob you. But it's a difficult world out there. Be vigilant. Be aware. The police can't always be there to protect you. Your government can not pass laws that will keep you from harm. Drugs are illegal. Too many young people get drugs and die from overdoses. The city of Chicago is a shocking example of government not helping.

It's interesting. Years ago, in Boston, it was newsworthy that the city crime rate, especially on the rapid transit, was surprisingly down on days that gun owners met and rallied on Beacon Hill, the center of our state government. It was decided to never write about that again in newspapers. A common saying among gun owners is; It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it. And: An armed society is a polite society.

Grow old. Make your own decisions. Don't do drugs. Be as safe as you can be. Keep interacting in this whole forum. Keep interacting with people of common sense. Make it a point to keep things in perspective.

We're not looking to change anyone's mind. We just expect the same considerations.

Sal

Salvo

Offline hannabee

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2019, 01:39:03 am »
thank you salvo, your response has been the kindest so far. I do not think that this beekeeping community will be any harm to me :) and indeed hope that I will learn more about bee keeping as it is a budding hobby that I have. You are right, and I do not think that we should ban guns completely, I think that we need stronger background checks, more regulations on who can own guns and what aspects should be more closely looked at.  thank you.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2019, 08:54:14 am »
> I'm sorry but children are DYING here and I think that we should put peoples lives before your guns.

There is a primary assumption that guns cause crime.  There is no evidence to support that assumption.  If you look at the number of guns in a country and the number of murders there is no correlation between the two.  It's all over the map.

https://augmentedtrader.com/2012/12/16/guns-and-homicide-worldwide-statistics/
https://augmentedtrader.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/chart1-firearms-homicide.png

https://www.americanthinker.com/legacy_assets/articles/assets/Murder%202.bmp

In the last chart you'll notice the US Virgin Islands is the second highest and yet they have very strict gun control there.  You get very different results if you look at the number of firearms per captita and the number of MURDERS rather than the number of "Gun Deaths".  The problem with "Gun Deaths" is that when guns are available people use knives and baseball bats.  The question is whether or not more guns actually equal more CRIME not whether or not it equals more "Gun Deaths".   For instance, the murder rate int Wyoming for 2017 was 2.6 per 100,000.  The murder rate in California was 4.6 per 100,000.  But the gun deaths in Wyoming were 17.5 per 100,000 and the gun deaths in California were 7.9 per 100,000.  So California had a lower gun death number and a higher murder rate.  How can that happen?  Not all murders are done with guns.  Most of the gun deaths are suicides.  California has a suicide rate of 10.5 per 100,000.  Wyoming has a suicide rate of 26.9.  If a Californian wants to commit suicide they take pills or slash their wrists or crash their car head-on into someone else.  If a Wyomingite wants to commit suicide they use a gun.  Guns don't make them want to commit suicide.  It's just the more available method.  If guns weren't available they would use the Californian methods.  Also a lot of gun deaths are police killing criminals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicide_rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/suicide.htm

There were 15,129 murders in 2017 according to the FBI.  4,147 of them were with things other than guns.  682 were killed with bare hands and that doesn't count the 193 that were strangled or asphyxiated.  1,591 with knives.  467 with blunt objects.  People have been murdering people through all of humanity long before there were guns.  Cars kill about 40,000 people every year.  Guns don't get close to that.  I think people's lives are more important than your cars...

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-11.xls
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2019, 09:21:16 am »
Mike the only issue I have with these statistics is when you separate out the difference between crimes of passion, suicide and mass shootings.  Mass shooting can only happen with a gun.  It is assumed that the individual is a nut.  So in my line of thinking the legislation should center around mental illness and the tools that makes mass shooting effective.  I am not in favor of banning guns nor am I in favor of arming every school and public building with guards.
Air travel today is insane.  Homeland security at the airports is nothing more than a huge drain on the federal budget.  We have this army at the airports for protection meanwhile planes fall out of the sky because someone thought it would be a good idea to take control away from the pilot.  Who's watching the manufacturers?  The manufacturers and their lobbyist.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2019, 11:18:59 am »
Quote
I think that we need stronger background checks, more regulations on who can own guns and what aspects should be more closely looked at.  thank you.

Welcome!

May I ask which of those things you want done would have stopped any of the shootings you mention?  gun regulations only impact those willing to obey the law.  By definition, the criminal who shoots up places is not willing to obey the law because it is already illegal to murder people. 

1000s of teens die driving cars every year yet when I suggest we increase the driving age to 21 people freak out.  "It would be hard on the parents" "Kids couldn't get to activities or jobs.  So, OK, you accept the risk of your teen driving which is much higher than the risk of anyone shooting them.  Accidents among teen drivers are up, yet gun deaths if you adjust for gang bangers and suicides, is down. 

I am glad you have engaged, but I am not here to be kind.  The debate should challenge thinking!   :wink:



They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2019, 01:52:10 pm »

1000s of teens die driving cars every year yet when I suggest we increase the driving age to 21 people freak out.
Absolutely!  One of my pet peevs.  Driving age 21, drinking age 16.  Regardless of what you and I think Kathy, the car manufacturers and insurance companies would not let it happen.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2019, 02:05:36 pm »
>Mass shooting can only happen with a gun.

You have stacked the deck with your words.  You can't shoot people with a truck.  Mass KILLINGS don't require a gun.  It just requires a crowded place and a car, or a large truck, or  a bomb, or in the case of several mass killings in Japan and China, a sword or a knife.  The cause of mass killings seems to be mostly that insane people want to be famous and if they do a mass killing the media will make them famous.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2019, 02:19:58 pm »
Murder is at it's lowest point since 1958:
https://www.infoplease.com/us/crime/homicide-rate-1950-2014

It is currently 44% of what it was in 1980.  Down to 4.5 per 100,000 from 10.2 per 100,000.  And the number of guns has probably tripled in that time and the number of concealed carry permits has gone up to at least five times what it was in 1999.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/10/19/3-million-americans-carry-loaded-handguns-with-them-every-single-day-study-finds/

The Washington Post (a most left wing anti gun organization) says that the number of permits went from 2.7 million in 1999 to 14.5 million in 2016.  So not only are them many more guns but there are at least six times as many people carrying guns.  And yet the murder rate continues to drop.

As of this minute there are 17 million concealed carry permits issued in the US.  Several states don't require them.  Odds are that 1 out of 14 people around you are carrying a gun.  In 2018 there were 24 million background checks to buy firearms.  11 million of those sales are new guns.  https://www.npr.org/2016/01/05/462017461/guns-in-america-by-the-numbers

The left likes to estimate that there are 300 million guns in the US.  This is unlikely.  Very few guns ever wear out.  That number is probably more like 1 billion. 

https://www.gunstocarry.com/concealed-carry-statistics/

There is likely several trillion rounds of ammo out there for those guns.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-bullets-are-there-in-the-us

How do you intend to disarm these people?  That people are being shot is exactly why people arm themselves.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 02:35:45 pm by Michael Bush »
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2019, 02:26:19 pm »
Quote
Regardless of what you and I think Kathy, the car manufacturers and insurance companies would not let it happen.

but when you mention the idea to the general public they throw a fit.  Not the kids.  The adults.  Kinda puts the lie to "We want to save kids lives.".
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2019, 03:32:16 pm »
What Salvo said in post #3.  Not much to add to that except that in some of the forum topics, our members get into pretty heated exchanges.  Please do not think they are as angry as they sometimes let on.  Acebird and Iddee, for example, sometimes sound like they hate each other, but they are, in fact, good friends. 

If you get serious about beekeeping, I would suggest you read everything you can about the subject and find a mentor.  It would be good to locate a beekeepers club near you.  My club sponsors two or three teenagers each year and supplies them with hives (wooden ware to hold bees), bee suits, bees and mentoring?everything to get started in beekeeping.  I suspect a lot of clubs do this, and there are beekeepers clubs just about everywhere there are beekeepers, so look into that possibility.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2019, 06:02:30 pm »
Acebird and Iddee, for example, sometimes sound like they hate each other, but they are, in fact, good friends. 
I missed my friend at the beefest.  Sure wished he could have made it.  But I understand.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2019, 06:17:12 pm »
Me, too, but didn't have the team drivers this year. Did miss you guys, tho.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2019, 10:17:25 am »
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand."--Seneca the Elder (54 BC-39 AD), Letters to Lucilius

"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."--Jeff Cooper

"The media insist that crime is the major concern of the American public today. In this connection they generally push the point that a disarmed society would be a crime-free society. They will not accept the truth that if you take all the guns off the street you still will have a crime problem, whereas if you take the criminals off the street you cannot have a gun problem."--Jeff Cooper

"It appears that the murder rate inside prisons is ten times higher than that outside prisons. It must be due to all those Kalashnikov rifles that are issued to prisoners upon their incarceration."--Jeff Cooper

"One cannot legislate the maniacs off the street--these maniacs can only be shut down by an armed citizenry. Indeed bad things can happen in nations where the citizenry is armed, but not as bad as those which seem to be threatening our disarmed citizenry in this country at this time."--Jeff Cooper

"The data from the 1990 Harvard Medical Practice Study suggest that 150,000 Americans die every year from doctors' negligence - compared with 38,000 gun deaths annually. Why are doctors not declared a public health menace? Because they save more lives than they take. And so it is with guns. Every year, good Americans use guns about 2.5 million times to protect themselves and their families, which means 65 lives are protected by guns for every life lost to a gun."--Dr. Edgar Suter, San Francisco Chronicle, July 12, 1994, Opinion (p. A17)

"You might not know that peaceable, law-abiding Americans use their personal firearms about 5,500 times a day for self-defense.... Not that there are 5,500 defensive shootings a day, as the mere display of a gun and verbal warning to an attacker usually resolves the situation without any shots fired.  In fact, private citizens shoot nearly three times more violent criminals than do the police, while wounding far fewer bystanders than do the police.  The media doesn't admit this, but the NRA compiles new clippings of such incidents in "The Armed Citizen." "--Boston T. Party, Boston's Gun Bible, p. 32-5; statistics from Kleck Study

"According to the National Crime Survey administered by the Bureau of the Census and the National Institute of Justice, it was found that only 12 percent of those who use a gun to resist assault are injured, as are 17 percent of those who use a gun to resist robbery. These percentages are 27 and 25 percent, respectively, if they passively comply with the felon's demands. Three times as many were injured if they used other means of resistance."--G. Kleck, "Policy Lessons from Recent Gun Control Research" 

"There's no question that weapons in the hands of the public have prevented acts of terror or stopped them."--Shlomo Aharonisky

"You can spout all the anti-gun noise you want. You can tell me guns are 'macho' and 'masculine', and accuse me of trying to be like the 'big boys' if I carry one. I don't care. I've been raped, and I've decided that I would much rather defend myself than sit back quietly and be 'ladylike'."--Julie Batson

"Boys who own legal firearms have much lower rates of delinquency and drug use and are even slightly less delinquent than nonowners of guns.--U.S. Department of Justice, "Urban Delinquency and Substance Abuse," August 1995.

"When a government controls both the economic power of individuals and the coercive power of the state ... this violates a fundamental rule of happy living: Never let the people with all the money and the people with all the guns be the same people."--P. J. O'Rourke (b. 1947)
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2019, 01:09:22 pm »
Excellent compilation of quotations, M. Bush. 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2019, 07:17:21 am »
Thanks for posting that Michael. You will never see anything thing like it in the news paper.
Jim Altmiller

Offline Acebird

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2019, 08:52:37 am »
Never let the people with all the money and the people with all the guns be the same people."--P. J. O'Rourke (b. 1947)

The people with all the money control transportation and communication.  It would not be hard for them to own all the guns no matter how many there are.  The people with all the money need people without the money to do the work so they are not going to wage war on them.  Isis has all the guns that they want and all the determination to win but does that make a difference?  No.  What makes a difference is control of transportation and communication.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Why we need gun regulations
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2019, 12:49:04 pm »
>The people with all the money control transportation and communication.  It would not be hard for them to own all the guns no matter how many there are.

If they succeed in disarming people they will be the only ones with guns.

 >The people with all the money need people without the money to do the work so they are not going to wage war on them. 

We would hope...
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