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Author Topic: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.  (Read 7197 times)

Offline Live Oak

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2019, 12:47:57 pm »
A politician and religion is even more of farce.  That is what you have with Trump and the rest of the swamp.
God = Thou shalt not Kill.  Military = Kill or be killed.
God = Thou shalt not steal, lie, or commit adultery.  Politician = rob, lie like hell, and screw anything that walks.
For self preservation all religions teach "we are the way to heaven".  Most have killed to prove it.
Religion is not the glue.  They all suffer from the problem of "do as I say not as I do".  Every major religious organization is run by the swamp of its own.
The true glue of any society is the family unit.  The family today is torn apart by economic times.  The biggest difference between my parents generation and my children's generation is it takes 2 to 3 jobs to provide for a family.  That leaves no parent home to rear their own kids.  This has nothing to do with God or religion.

Totally incorrect.  That is NOT what the Bible states and references.  Thou salt not murder is what it DOES say if it was correctly transcribed.  The Heavenly Father has endowed us with natural born rights. These are rights we are endowed with from Him which are referenced and pre-exist the Bill of Rights & the Constititution by virtue to being born in the image of God.  Chief among these natural born rights is the right to protect yourself, family, and loved ones from harm.  This is NOT murder. 

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2019, 03:16:55 pm »
Re:  what Kathy and others said?-

The family WAS, when most of grew up, a unit of father, mother and children.  Now, thanks in large part to the social engineering and laws passed in the 1960s, the ?family? is a mother (or frequently grandmother) and children and an absent sperm donor.  Mom has maybe a high school education and can never expect to make a good living.  Her children grow up without an appreciation for either an education or training for a good trade, so their future is about as dismal as Mom?s. 

Pessimistic?  Darn right, but that?s what our society has become, in my opinion.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2019, 04:09:54 pm »


Totally incorrect.  That is NOT what the Bible states and references.  Thou salt not murder is what it DOES say if it was correctly transcribed.  The Heavenly Father has endowed us with natural born rights. These are rights we are endowed with from Him which are referenced and pre-exist the Bill of Rights & the Constititution by virtue to being born in the image of God.  Chief among these natural born rights is the right to protect yourself, family, and loved ones from harm.  This is NOT murder.

This is correct on all counts. We have every right - even a responsibility - to protect our families, freedoms, & the society that allows us to keep those freedoms (such as the freedom to suffer, or reap the rewards of, our own person decisions).

Funny fact - I heard (on the news the other day) that drug overdose deaths had passed 42,000 people/year in the USA. ... to put that in perspective - that's over 4 TIMES the rate of gun deaths/year according to the FBI. Quick fact-check: Who brouht us and/or promoted to our youth, all of these drugs? Last I knew, it was a single political party responsible for this - their goal? ... to use drugs to undermine the Family Unit in order to make people more likely to be dependant, and therefore more likely to vote themselves into the slavery of Socialism/Communism/Progressivism/Whatever-name-you-want-to-give-it. ...

Funny fact #2 - that political party (mentioned above) can't get the government it wants (so desperately) while honest men and women have guns in this country. ... so they need any-and-every excuse to take them from us without too much fuss ... is there anyone that really thinks "gun-free zones" were intended to "prevent" violence? ... Well, ... quick wake-up call - They are Shooting Galleries. ... that give the aforementioned political party day-and-night TV/Internet coverage of their excuses to take the guns away from We The [Law-abiding] People - all while everyone cheers them ...

If you really don't see what's happening with all this ... I don't know what to say.
If you do see it ... then I didn't need to say anything.
In either case, it made me feel better.  :cheesy:

If Beemaster had a "like" button I'd have worn it out on this thread - between Iddee, Mr. Bush, Live Oak, Kathy, Sawdust, (and the rest of you).  :cool:
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline incognito

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2019, 06:03:32 pm »
CoolBees,
Your funny fact is open to interpretation. In the interest of full disclosure; according to the CDC homicides with firearms for 2017 was 14,582 but the number of firearms deaths was 39,773 if you include suicides (23,854), legal intervention (616) and accidents (486) (I don't know what the 235 difference is). That being said, more murders are committed with fists and feet than (assault style) rifles.


The CDC publishes statistics on death from all sources. I have not reviewed the statistics in years (before now) but firearms related deaths are near the bottom of the list of causes of accidental death.  https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_09-508.pdf

If you follow the statistics from year to year, you can conclude that the more dramatic rise in automobile deaths - due in part to distracted driving / texting - is a more concerning trend. But since most people are guilty of that infraction to some extent the outrage is muted.

Yes we have problems - many noted in this topic - but the focus on LEGAL gun ownership is misguided.

My semi-autos are also safely secured and well behaved. Imagine that.




Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
  • Heart disease: 647,457
  • Cancer: 599,108
  • Accidents (unintentional injuries): 169,936
  • Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 160,201
  • Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 146,383
  • Alzheimer?s disease: 121,404
  • Diabetes: 83,564
  • Influenza and Pneumonia: 55,672
  • Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 50,633
  • Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,173
Source: Deaths: Final Data for 2017, table B pdf icon[PDF ? 2 MB]
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 07:31:42 pm by incognito »
Tom

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2019, 06:44:25 pm »
Incognito - thank you for the follow-up. The additional statistical data definitely adds great information to this topic.

To clarify, it is my understanding that the FBI's** statistics regarding gun deaths include all firearm related deaths - including suicide by gun. As such, on a year-to-year average, approximately 50% of 10,000 gun deaths are suicides. This leaves on average, around 5000 people killed by others (gangs, mass-shootings, robbery, police shootings, self defense, drug wars, etc), of which usually less than 300 are with "long-guns" (long-guns are the umbrella group that ASSAULT RIFLES are listed under - unless something has changed recently).

2nd comment - I've never heard of "intentional self harm" by name, or as a standalone statistic. Interesting. That statistic would seem to be harder to quantify in some cases. Just my thoughts.

 **(FBI Gun Death statistics - for those that may not know - these are listed on the FBI's website)
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline incognito

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2019, 06:59:03 pm »
What needs to be pondered is why the firearms death rate varies so significantly by race and age.

That alone shows that the firearm is not the cause, but the tool. There is something different about the sub categories that needs to be addressed.

I don't know how to have an honest discussion about this without being labeled a racist, so I will leave the numbers to speak for themselves - or beg the questions themselves.


Edited to add:
What also needs to be pondered is why the firearms deaths from mass shootings seems concentrated in white males and those with extreme cultural beliefs. 
Tom

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2019, 07:22:29 pm »
CoolBees,
I rest my case regarding the interpretation of the data.
Two of our "finest" government sources can't even seem to agree on the numbers.  They are not even close to each other. You would think that they would consult the other's data sources and iron out the differences.

So the CDC can categorize some of those homicide deaths as firearms related whereas the FBI has them listed as other or unidentified???? I am truly impressed with the CDC's thoroughness!


I have also seen statistics breaking down the race of the assailant as compared to the race of the victim. It is possible that it is on the FBI's website. If that data is reliable, it also refutes what the media and some community activists would like us to believe the main issue is.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 07:39:08 pm by incognito »
Tom

Offline kathyp

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2019, 08:27:48 pm »
Quote
What also needs to be pondered is why the firearms deaths from mass shootings seems concentrated in white males and those with extreme cultural beliefs.

My theory:  The young white male shooter is no different than the gang banger.  There are not many white gangs, and so the extreme ideology becomes the gang.  They have no anchor, bad family life, and yes, mental illness.  They do not have community ties, church ties, or school ties.  They have broken or dysfunctional families.  Most of them have acted out for years before they get to the shooter stage.  They embrace something that they think gives meaning and eventually act out to prove themselves just as the gang banger does. 

They are Martin Sheen in Badlands.

I think there is some other stuff that goes with being a white male these days, but I don't think those things are major causes.  They might contribute to the feeling of being disenfranchised. 

The other than white male extreme cultural beliefs are pretty self-explanatory. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Online sawdstmakr

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2019, 09:06:59 pm »
Today the average family has both parents working and often times at least one of them is working two jobs not because we have more frills but because the government in now taxing us from every direction. They tax our income then they tax our property and add sales tax on everything we buy. Before an item reaches the sales floor, they tax the manufacturer to the max which means they have to pass those taxes onto the consumer before the sales taxes are added on.
Back in the 50s and 60s my father fed our family of 10 on one main job. We had one of the first color TVs in the neighborhood. We had 2 cars, usually one was bought new and the other used.
We were able to keep most of the money my father made. The governments take was much less back then.
Our founding fathers went to war against the most power country in the world over 2 cents tax on one item. We are now taxed on every item and service and our labor.
Our founding fathers are rolling over in their grave and we all should be embarrassed fro letting these politicians do it.
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Offline incognito

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2019, 11:32:18 pm »
Quote
What also needs to be pondered is why the firearms deaths from mass shootings seems concentrated in white males and those with extreme cultural beliefs.

My theory:  The young white male shooter is no different than the gang banger.  There are not many white gangs, and so the extreme ideology becomes the gang.  They have no anchor, bad family life, and yes, mental illness.  They do not have community ties, church ties, or school ties.  They have broken or dysfunctional families.  Most of them have acted out for years before they get to the shooter stage.  They embrace something that they think gives meaning and eventually act out to prove themselves just as the gang banger does. 

I agree with your theory.
Add isolation from being a latch key kid and too many adult supervised activities to the list.

In the 1960s and 1970s we grew up outside the home after school. You learned how to fit in in that environment. You learned how to settle differences. Nobody got seriously hurt and offending others was the goal - LOL. We learned how to take criticism and dish it out.  You were shamed as a sissy (even the girls) if you couldn't take your share of friendly abuse. We organized our own sports and refereed our own games. 

Parents are trying to make the world too gentle and fair for their children. Real life is neither.
Tom

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2019, 08:29:25 am »
Incognito,
Quote
In the 1960s and 1970s we grew up outside the home after school. You learned how to fit in in that environment. You learned how to settle differences. Nobody got seriously hurt and offending others was the goal - LOL. We learned how to take criticism and dish it out.  You were shamed as a sissy (even the girls) if you couldn't take your share of friendly abuse. We organized our own sports and refereed our own games. 

Parents are trying to make the world too gentle and fair for their children. Real life is neither.
Modify message

Very true.
Jim Altmiller

Offline Acebird

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2019, 09:27:05 am »
The Heavenly Father has endowed us with natural born rights.
I don't know what religion you are sighting but most catechisms I was taught from told you to turn the other cheek if stricken.  The only right "God" proposed was to enter his kingdom by following his teachings.  All other "rights" are BS interpretations from the men who wrote them.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2019, 12:34:16 pm »
Quote
All other "rights" are BS interpretations from the men who wrote them.

So you would rather have the government interpreting what are our rights?  The reason we have "inalienable rights" given by our creator (even if the founders made it up) is that what the creator gives the government has no right to take. 

Again, choices.  Government control or personal responsibility.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2019, 12:41:30 am »
Quote
When people of a military background start talking religion my butt twitches.  God is not a regulator.  He might be judge and jury at day of reckoning.

It is about what regulates behavior.  There is a reason communist countries ban religion, especially Christianity.  You don't have to advocate for a particular belief system to recognize that the belief system has value in a society.  Historically, societies have been built around them.  Doesn't matter whether it's live human sacrifice, or something else.  It is the glue.

Not sure why there is a problem with military and religion?  You seem not to have read much of what the founders or even past presidents have said.  Ever read FDRs d-day announcement?

Text of Radio Address - Prayer on D-Day, June 6, 1944:
"My fellow Americans: Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.

And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer:

Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our Nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.

Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.

They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.

They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest-until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.

For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and good will among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.

Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.

And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas -- whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them--help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.

Many people have urged that I call the Nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.

Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.

And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.

And, O Lord, give us Faith. Give us Faith in Thee; Faith in our sons; Faith in each other; Faith in our united crusade. Let not the keenness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.

With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogancies. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister Nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.

Thy will be done, Almighty God.

Amen."


Noah Webster said,

"If the citizens neglect their Duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made, not for the public good so much as for selfish or local purposes; corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the Laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizen will be violated or disregarded"
"Every child in America should be acquainted with his own country. He should read books that furnish him with ideas that will be useful to him in life and practice. As soon as he opens his lips, he should rehearse the history of his own country."Every civil government is based upon some religion or philosophy of life. Education in a nation will propagate the religion of that nation. In America, the foundational religion was Christianity. And it was sown in the hearts of Americans through the home and private and public schools for centuries. Our liberty, growth, and prosperity was the result of a Biblical philosophy of life. Our continued freedom and success is dependent on our educating the youth of America in the principles of Christianity." Noah also said, "The freedom of the press is a valuable privilege; but the abuse of it , in this country, is a frightful evil. The licentiousness of the press is a deep stain upon the character of the country; & in addition to the the evil of of culminating good men, & giving a wrong direction to public measures, it corrupts the people by rendering them insensible to the value of the truth  & of reputation. The ecclesiastical establishments of Europe which serve ;to support tyrannical governments are not the Christian religion but abuses and corruptions of it. "All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible." No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people." Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States."

NOW FRIENDS, DON'T BE TRICKED INTO THINKING NOAH WEBSTER WAS A DUMB, UNHINGED, OFF THE WALL, JOHNNY COME LATELY;  FOOL...
HE WAS NOT.

Noah Webster Jr. (October 16, 1758 ? May 28, 1843) was an American lexicographer, textbook pioneer, English-language spelling reformer, political writer, editor, and prolific author. He has been called the "Father of American Scholarship and Education". His "Blue-backed Speller" books taught five generations of American children how to spell and read. Webster's name has become synonymous with "dictionary" in the United States, especially the modern Merriam-Webster dictionary that was first published in 1828 as An American Dictionary of the English Language.

Born in West Hartford, Connecticut, Webster graduated from Yale College in 1778. He passed the bar examination after studying law under Oliver Ellsworth and others, but was unable to find work as a lawyer. He found some financial success by opening a private school and writing a series of educational books, including the "Blue-Backed Speller." A strong supporter of the American Revolution and the ratification of the United States Constitution, Webster later criticized American society for being in need of an intellectual foundation. He believed that American nationalism was superior to Europe because American values were superior.[3]

In 1793, Alexander Hamilton recruited Webster to move to New York City and become an editor for a Federalist Party newspaper. He became a prolific author, publishing newspaper articles, political essays, and textbooks. He returned to Connecticut in 1798 and served in the Connecticut House of Representatives.
In 1806, Webster published his first dictionary, A Compendious Dictionary of the English Language. The following year, he started working on an expanded and comprehensive dictionary, finally publishing it in 1828. He was very influential in popularizing certain spellings in the United States. He was also influential in establishing the Copyright Act of 1831, the first major statutory revision of U.S. copyright law. While working on a second volume of his dictionary, Webster died in 1843, and the rights to the dictionary were acquired by George and Charles Merriam.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 12:59:57 am by Ben Framed »

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2019, 07:51:16 am »
Nice history lesson on Webster.
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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2019, 09:19:19 am »
Quote
All other "rights" are BS interpretations from the men who wrote them.

So you would rather have the government interpreting what are our rights?

What the hay do you think the constitution is?  A hand full of people deciding what the rights are for other people.  And as written not equal for everyone.  Something like the bible/bibles.
Some of the propaganda of our fore fathers centers around "We the People".  They never hoped this would come true.  They certainly didn't believe in it.  Even today people sight the phrase but don't believe one bit of it.

So to answer your question, whether you like it or not, government does decide what are rights are.  In our country "we the people" have some influence on the direction that government moves.  And with all governments the sector of the population with most of the wealth has most of the influence because money is power.  I don't ever see this changing even if by some miracle the world becomes united.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2019, 06:06:52 pm »
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What the hay do you think the constitution is?  A hand full of people deciding what the rights are for other people.  And as written not equal for everyone. 

This is not accurate.  As written, it is equal for everyone.  As implemented in those times it was not.  However, it was the thing that brought equality eventually for blacks, women, and assorted other groups since.   
Quote
A hand full of people deciding what the rights are for other people.

Again, not accurate.  It does not decide rights, but it does protect rights.  It protects our rights from government interference.  It specifically instructs the federal government (congress) not to interfere in our rights, but does not restrict, in most things, our state governments. 

Quote
"We the People".  They never hoped this would come true.  They certainly didn't believe in it.  Even today people sight the phrase but don't believe one bit of it.

Can you site your reasoning for this argument?  There was debate between the federalists and anti-federalist which I am assuming you have read, and it did have to do with the amount of govenrment needed, but I am not sure where you get the ideas for the rest of your statement.

Quote
So to answer your question, whether you like it or not, government does decide what are rights are.  In our country "we the people" have some influence on the direction that government moves.  And with all governments the sector of the population with most of the wealth has most of the influence because money is power.  I don't ever see this changing even if by some miracle the world becomes united.

there is some truth in some of this.  Money has always given power no matter the country or government.  However, we have chosen to give over much of our power in exchange for stuff.  If we were following the constitution the federal government would have little to do in our daily lives and little impact.  As it is, they are passing out the goodies and in return they expect your vote.  There's a reason those advertisements about throwing granny off the cliff were done.  to many grannies and others have a fear of the feds not passing out the goodies. 
There is a reason the current crop of leftists are trying to outdo each other with the "free" stuff.  You take from them, and they forever own you and your vote. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #77 on: August 19, 2019, 12:14:40 am »
Good post Kathy.

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2019, 09:20:15 am »
As written, it is equal for everyone.  As implemented in those times it was not.  However, it was the thing that brought equality eventually for blacks, women, and assorted other groups since. 

It was implemented exactly as they planned.  and NO it was liberal minded people that fought for the change in the Constitution because it was wrong!
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A hand full of people deciding what the rights are for other people.

Quote
It does not decide rights, but it does protect rights.  It protects our rights from government interference.  It specifically instructs the federal government (congress) not to interfere in our rights, but does not restrict, in most things, our state governments. 
Extremely naive.  All governments decide rights based on what the population will endure.
Quote
"We the People".  They never hoped this would come true.  They certainly didn't believe in it.  Even today people sight the phrase but don't believe one bit of it.

Quote
Can you site your reasoning for this argument? 
  When they used the word "People" they were thinking us not them.  Never did they think the general population would be educated enough to make decisions.  And it was liberal minded people, again, that brought education to the population.
Quote
So to answer your question, whether you like it or not, government does decide what are rights are.  In our country "we the people" have some influence on the direction that government moves.  And with all governments the sector of the population with most of the wealth has most of the influence because money is power.  I don't ever see this changing even if by some miracle the world becomes united.

Quote
However, we have chosen to give over much of our power in exchange for stuff.
  Yes we have, pitfall from self rule I suppose.  Some like it others don't.
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If we were following the constitution the federal government would have little to do in our daily lives and little impact.
  We are following the constitution of today and it wouldn't have changed if the population of the US were as it was in 1976.
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There is a reason the current crop of leftists are trying to outdo each other with the "free" stuff.  You take from them, and they forever own you and your vote.
No one has taken more then the present administration.  Not even close.  Empowered by the righties.  Now whether they own enough votes to continue gouging the american people will remain to be seen.  Unfortunately they have set the stage for future administrations.  So it is likely we will get screwed no matter what.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline kathyp

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Re: Cider's ?safer? gun free home.
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2019, 11:30:27 am »
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It was implemented exactly as they planned.  and NO it was liberal minded people that fought for the change in the Constitution because it was wrong!

I think you make the common mistake of thinking that the social norms of the time were enshrined in the constitution.  they were not.  The changes made to the constitution by amendment were done to enshrine the changes in the social norms.  The constitution was used to force many of the changes in what society did.  This has not always been done correctly IMHO. 

I agree that it was classically liberal people who forced many changes.  They were not liberal (progressive) as we understand the word today. 

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Extremely naive.  All governments decide rights based on what the population will endure.

This is correct and all the more reason to look at the constitution as our law and protect it.  IT protects our rights.  Government will not. 

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  When they used the word "People" they were thinking us not them.  Never did they think the general population would be educated enough to make decisions.  And it was liberal minded people, again, that brought education to the population.

Those liberal minded people who encouraged education were our founders. We had public education here before we were a country.  Jefferson and Webster, among others, created the first public school system for the post-revolution population.  What they did not want was a democracy.  They did not want the whims of the population convinced by whatever had roiled them up, to be able to rule the country.  (Think a Hitler or Mussolini, or some incident that stirred up emotion). 

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Yes we have, pitfall from self rule I suppose.  Some like it others don't.

Yes, being responsible for ones own self and those around us is hard.  Much easier to turn responsibility over to the government.  In the same way the 26 year old finds it convenient to live in the parents' basement, so do the people find it convenient to not have to worry about anything and take what they are given.  We have decades of examples of how this works out, but hey, let's see if history really does repeat itself and try it again!

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We are following the constitution of today and it wouldn't have changed if the population of the US were as it was in 1976.

I suspect you need to read the thing.  It's short and won't take much of your time.

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No one has taken more then the present administration.  Not even close.  Empowered by the righties.  Now whether they own enough votes to continue gouging the american people will remain to be seen.  Unfortunately they have set the stage for future administrations.  So it is likely we will get screwed no matter what.

Can you be more specific?  What has been taken and by whom?  In what way are you being gouged?  Set the stage for what?  Screwed in what way?


They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville