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Author Topic: A gift that keeps on giving  (Read 4921 times)

Online iddee

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2019, 12:53:35 pm »
""What about the "working poor" or those becoming unable to work because of sickness? What happens to them? Is it god?s will in your eyes they starve or depend on charity?
Yes I believe it is. A merciless thinking. No offense meant. It?s just I can?t understand the liberty in this. Freedom to go down?""

You mean like the poor, starving, helpless person who last week was arrested for receiving 400,000 dollars in food stamps, illegally?

OH, that poor, starving person, and then they arrest them. Just HORRIBLE.

If half the welfare money spent in the USA was legitimate, we would have no problem. That's why we say it should be moved from federal to state control. Then maybe some of the waste and fraud could be curtailed.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline SiWolKe

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2019, 01:25:57 pm »
good idea!

Online kathyp

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2019, 01:26:14 pm »
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If half the welfare money spent in the USA was legitimate, we would have no problem. That's why we say it should be moved from federal to state control. Then maybe some of the waste and fraud could be curtailed.

Moved back to state control.

The problem is that states are now as addicted to federal money as people are.  Look at the states crying over the federal "shut down".
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2019, 03:40:54 pm »
About 10 years ago . I lived in a rental mobile home trailer park. I work in commercial construction (hospitals,schools) so only work about
265-325 days a year. There was 12 rentals , 3 of those rentals were people (family's)  20-25 yrs. of age that worked the handout system. Most were able to work but didn't. Daddy claimed back problems, having
baby after baby, daddy can't work because of bad back that Drs. can't confirm so daddy gets disability. Mommy ,daddy and all baby's get food stamps(free food)  all get free health care,  the more baby's the more free stuff. They would try and find people willing to give them 50 cents on the dollar on the food stamps to have cash at hand for alcohol- weed.
I was not brought up this way. But they were tought this way. Don't know if this systematic way was brought to rural areas from big cities or not.
All i could do was shake my head. It's a sad situation.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2019, 03:50:31 pm »
About 10 years ago . I lived in a rental mobile home trailer park. I work in commercial construction (hospitals,schools) so only work about
265-325 days a year. There was 12 rentals , 3 of those rentals were people (family's)  20-25 yrs. of age that worked the handout system. Most were able to work but didn't. Daddy claimed back problems, having
baby after baby, daddy can't work because of bad back that Drs. can't confirm so daddy gets disability. Mommy ,daddy and all baby's get food stamps(free food)  all get free health care,  the more baby's the more free stuff. They would try and find people willing to give them 50 cents on the dollar on the food stamps to have cash at hand for alcohol- weed.
I was not brought up this way. But they were tought this way. Don't know if this systematic way was brought to rural areas from big cities or not.
All i could do was shake my head. It's a sad situation.

Thank you and your family  MikeyNC , for your hard work to help yourself and your hard work to help build up America!!! As the good man and fellow Mississippian, Jerry Clower use to say " If you work hard, and have that bulldog hang on tight attitude, In America you can be a winner!! God Bless you MikeyNC and God Bless America!!
Phillip

Online kathyp

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2019, 04:12:40 pm »
A lot of us went through a poor period.  Personally, I think our family was better for it.  We left the military with just enough in savings to move and find a cheap place to live.  I did childcare from home because our kids were little, and my husband worked 2 to 3 part time jobs and went to school.  We ate a lot of soup and chicken parts.  We turned down the heat, shared one old car between us, and turned off the lights.  At one point I even turned off the furnace pilot light at night to see if it would save any money.  Probably spent more in matches to relight it than I saved   :grin:

the kids were dressed out of goodwill, and I knew every discount grocery trick in the book.  Diapers were washed in the bathtub.  We took no aid. 

He finished school and got a good job.  Kids went to school and I worked.  Student loans were paid and that was the only debt we had. 

It can be done.  It's not easy.   Poverty is not a disease.  It is a state of exitance that a person has to wish to change.  If they do not, it should not be the job of society to support them. 

Those penny pinching ways have only changed a bit and it has given us the ability to save for retirement, own some income properties, and have the money to get and do what we want to get and do.  I still buy my clothes at GoodWill!

At that same time, I had a neighbor with two young kids.  Never married.  She not only took all the government aid she could get, she hit up every charity.  At Christmas, she would make the rounds and pick up free toys for the kids.  Thanksgiving, free food boxes.  She couldn't buy dog food with food stamps so she fed the dog hamburger.  She got help with her utility bills. 
I don't know what became of her or her children, but what a poor example to set for kids. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline MikeyN.C.

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2019, 04:44:17 pm »
It's a poor example of us (yes) what has happened. 
Sold 1st house i bought in Louisiana in 94'
Came back home to family in N.C. , bought
Home on 5 acres,  had divorce,  left house to xwife and girls. Stayed in park for 2 yrs.
Have my own place own 2 acres.  All is good.   Was just trying to explain welfare system to bfb, sw?
Kp,  one of my favorite meals today is homemade lard biscuits and beans :grin:

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2019, 05:17:46 pm »
 Kathy, now that is the type of hang on tight bulldog grip I believe Mr Clower was talking about! Thank you for sharing your experience,  proving once more Mr. Clowers theory! Good for you and your family what a shining sample to others! And thank you and your family  for serving the rest of us during your time in the military! God bless you,
 Philip

Online kathyp

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2019, 05:24:31 pm »
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And thank you and your family  for serving the rest of us during your time in the military! God bless you,

Thanks.  It was our pleasure.  Of course, AOC would like to punish us with higher taxes for our effort, but that's another story   :cheesy:
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2019, 05:27:59 pm »
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And thank you and your family  for serving the rest of us during your time in the military! God bless you,

Thanks.  It was our pleasure.  Of course, AOC would like to punish us with higher taxes for our effort, but that's another story   :cheesy:

Yes, you are right, she would and will if possible.
Shame

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2019, 05:46:42 pm »
>A lot of us went through a poor period.

Most young adults when they leave home do, unless they have rich parents who are propping them up.  You have to work your way up in life.  I do see a difference in attitude today.  I was taught honest work was nothing to be ashamed of, whether it was shoveling horse manure, cleaning toilets or pouring concrete.  If it needs to be done, and it's not illegal, it's honest work.  Now people think they are being demeaned if they aren't highly paid or if they have to get dirty to do the work.
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Online kathyp

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2019, 06:39:25 pm »
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Now people think they are being demeaned if they aren't highly paid or if they have to get dirty to do the work.

since the end of WW2 we have told kids that if they get a degree they will be well paid.  Now everyone has a degree and they are competing for jobs.  They are not willing to do dirty work because they have that degree and they were promised it would keep them from shoveling crap.

Good blue collar jobs go empty because no one with a degree wants to clean sewers.

Our rental had a sewage backup.  The management company called out the plumbing company.  Less than one hour work and it was 800 dollars.  No degree required!  I realize that money didn't all go into the pocket of the "technician" (their description) but I'm sure he makes a good wage out of it. 

Lol.  Next time I have to snake my own drain I'll just remind myself that I  AM A TECHNICIAN!
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 09:59:41 pm by sawdstmakr »
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online iddee

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2019, 06:42:00 pm »
Back then a man was proud to be a municipal sanitation engineer.
Today young men have no desire to shovel poop for the city.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2019, 07:59:21 pm »
SiWolke . ''it explains too why you need weapons''

No my sweet hearted friend.  The following is why we have weapons. As our founding fathers knew the dangers of an oppressive government.. As first posted by Live Oak
https://www.foxnews.com/world/venezuelans-regret-gun-prohibition-we-could-have-defended-ourselves?fbclid=IwAR1KoDcw6CrOsSgCqNIHGN6ZfooecY7VUZdeyuwhFj8TrfVpKC5gOmFN1ME

This is by no means the first time in history that this sort of thing has happened. I can give other examples but would really rather not my friend.
Phillip

Online kathyp

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2019, 09:55:42 pm »
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Personally I think this is a very good system which had been proven good. If dignified survivability depends on every single person?s working ability this promotes criminality. It explains too why you need weapons.

Wow.  I skimmed right over this.

dignified survival does depend on working ability/willingness.  There is nothing dignified about taking what someone else has earned unless you are disabled in some way or too old to work.  Even then many disabled work, and hopefully people are planning for retirement with savings. 

I am a big believer in volunteer work and charity.  The government taking my money and giving it to someone else is theft.  I think of it this way:  If you come out of the shop with a sandwich and I take it from you against your will and give it to some homeless person I have committed a crime regardless of my good intentions.  government redistribution is the same.  It is not a charity.  Charity is done by choice. 

I have weapons because I want weapons.  I may never  use them except for sport, but they are not the business of the government.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2019, 10:12:10 pm »
When the government uses taxes for charities they are taking the money at the point of a gun. If you do not believe that, don?t pay your taxes and you will receive a visit by an armed policeman.
Jim

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2019, 02:43:57 am »
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A community (and a state is a community) should stand up for their weak and hopeless members.
That is also a Christian value. Jesus says, "do not worry you will be given". Did he take money for healing people? Did he want thanks? Did he want to be asked or begged?

That's why I respect AOC, she has the courage to be a voice for the weak. It does not matter who cares for the people, be it a private person or a community as long as someone cares.
And she is a beautiful happy young coloured woman which makes it even harder for her.

This is a difference between European and American thinking.  Europeans have always been subjects of their government.  Their king, dictator, or now their elected government.  You expect your government to be benevolent and care for you.

Americans, traditionally, have expected their government to stay out of their lives and out of their way.  If someone is truly in need, I have no problem taking care of them.  In this country there should never have been federal programs to care for people.  It should have been left to each state.  People have more control over their own states and programs.

If people have chosen welfare as a lifestyle, they should be ashamed.   If people have saved no money even though they have a good job, and find they are going to miss a paycheck or two, they should be ashamed to take from others.

AOC wants everyone to have everything free.  There is no free.  Someone pays for it, but she seems not to have a clue about who or how.  She is a socialist and socialism always ends with everyone doing poorly.  Never does socialism lift up a society, and never do people who depend on welfare achieve wealth unless they are willing to get off welfare and do what it takes to succeed. 

Jesus didn't advocate for government welfare.  He instructed us to be charitable.  That is a personal duty and a choice.

Hi kathyp!
interesting post.
I don`t know if there is so much history behind the state "caring" for its inhabitants. Or vice verca: them EXPECTING it. It all started with some companies putting in to healthcare and retirement-services for their employees. social welfare came a lot later and is not so very old, really.

If it is really true what you say: the state keeping out of your life: great! I am envious.
Here, I go through quite a hassle to just build a little greenhouse or a garage. alomost forbidden at my place. e.g.
also, I was forced to use public water, instead of my own well. me off.
otherwise, I don`t feel all-too-much-on-a-leash. maybe I just don`t see it. Govt doesn`t poke its nose into my living-room, e.g.. Now, in the GDR things were different, no doubt.
You got to pay taxes, too?
How high is VAT, by the way?

Maybe social welfare is a way to get "calmer" societies". Bread and Games. The old romans knew about it.
Without any bad connotations: The bad neighbourhoods I saw in the US 30 years ago....I can`t imagine finding that in Germany or Switzerland or maybe Denmark or so. So maybe there is some good to it after all?
Apart from the non-good, I mean.
"Give the ones living on welfare more money and they will sit in front of the TV with just more beer." is a quote from a friend of mine, which might hit what you are aiming for.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2019, 02:45:56 am »
kathyp,
thanks for the explanations. You are right about the different thinking, of course.

What about the "working poor" or those becoming unable to work because of sickness? What happens to them? Is it god?s will in your eyes they starve or depend on charity?
Yes I believe it is. A merciless thinking. No offense meant. It?s just I can?t understand the liberty in this. Freedom to go down?

Probably you know something about our welfare system. You are insured ( no choice) and when you get unemployed ( which is hard to do by the companies) you get unemployment support from the payers community.
After that you get "hartz 4" which is welfare money. While you get it you are obliged to look at the jobs the agency offers you, if you don?t take the job they will pay you less after some time.
This system is called "fordern und f?rdern" ( demand and help).

If you get a serious medical condition like cancer you will get retirement money paid by the community.
The costs of medical treatments are paid by the community.

The community has lobbies.
The only exception are the civil servant persons who do not have to pay into the community, which I find must be disestablished.
Those people make the laws and therefore should not be excempted.

Personally I think this is a very good system which had been proven good. If dignified survivability depends on every single person?s working ability this promotes criminality. It explains too why you need weapons.

you mean "Beamte"?
As far as I know, they are insured privately and costs for early retirement is carried by the state employing.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2019, 02:50:59 am »
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What about the "working poor" or those becoming unable to work because of sickness? What happens to them? Is it god?s will in your eyes they starve or depend on charity?

Lol.  No I don't think they should starve, but I also don't think that welfare should be a lifestyle choice for anyone who can work.  It has become that for many.  Yes, I do think charity should be the first solution for short term help.

We have unemployment insurance.  It is supposed to be limited to give you a chance to find another job.  We have free and reduced cost medical care for those who are poor.  In fact, if you include Medicare and Medicaid, over 1/2 the people in the country are getting some kind of government money for health care. 

I observe that Germans have a different mindset about things like medical care.  Your people are less apt to abuse the system.  I am not sure why.  If you look at something like the UKs NHS, the opposite is true. 

In this country the opposite is true for those on medical welfare.  They use and abuse the system.  There is no penalty for them if they do this.  For instance, If I skip a medical appointment that I have scheduled, I am going to get a bill in the mail.  It's a small one, but it is a penalty for not having the courtesy to cancel my appointment.  If a person is on welfare and dose that, there is no penalty.  The appointment sits empty because they did not have the courtesy to call.

There is a difference between someone who can't work and someone who chooses not to work, or chooses not to advance to the point of making a better wage.  We have a good economy and low unemployment.  There is no reason for healthy people to be sitting around doing nothing.

We should also note that this is a huge country with a diverse population.  We have 350 million people, not counting illegals.  "free stuff" for 350 million people has never been successfully tried.  India has more people and has given free health care a go, but it is only effective in the cities. 
Obamacare has already cost us a lot of our rural hospitals and providers.  Free will mean even more close.  Like India (or the UK) we will only get good care in a city.  In the UK, that's a short trip. Not a short trip here.

I think each country should do what works for them, but if you are going to spend all your money on welfare, you can't do things like field a military or pay your NATO bill.   :wink:

for medical care you can either be insured privately or by severeal" companies" offering a "normal" insurance. Waht got me off a few years past: All of a sudden I MUST BE INSURED. Before as business-man you could just choose to pay your bills as came in. now insurance is a must.

I live pretty rural and, of course, if you need an ambulance in winter.... well....there are helicopters, of course. nevertheless. I guess it`s not economic.

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2019, 05:41:54 am »
>A lot of us went through a poor period.

Most young adults when they leave home do, unless they have rich parents who are propping them up.  You have to work your way up in life.  I do see a difference in attitude today.  I was taught honest work was nothing to be ashamed of, whether it was shoveling horse manure, cleaning toilets or pouring concrete.  If it needs to be done, and it's not illegal, it's honest work.  Now people think they are being demeaned if they aren't highly paid or if they have to get dirty to do the work.

I had rich parents but they did not prop me up. My father spent all for himself and his hobbys leaving my mother and us three kids poor. Poor means no new clothes, not enough nourishment.
I remember myself and my siblings fighting over food. I was thin as a stick.

I had a good education though, it was paid for by state.

I left home at the age of 18, after being abused repeatedly by my father, before he went to the extreme. I was so poor I had some days a week no food for three years. I could have sued my parents but was too proud and did not want this because of ethics.

I did my three years education to have a degree and started a job which I now do for 37 years without a break. Worked myself up. I work with my hands and get dirty.
But I feel good to be independant.
While in an education my father got money from the state for me, as is common here. He never shared with me or paid for my education as he would be obliged to do.

I know welfare is expoloited, but I have met many persons who are not able to save money for old age.
Beside my day job I worked for 7 years as a dog trainer after paying for a degree. I met millionaires and welfare people.

I?ve met millionaires who buy their food at the charity market we have in town ( goods are cheaply sold there, it?s surplus or one day old food from discounters) until they were blocked.
I?ve met welfare people who shared everything. I?ve met hard working people who shared everything.

Today working with hands is despised. That?s sad.

My families ( mine and my husbands) always despised me because I have no academic degree.
Today I?m wealthy because of my husbands?heritage, otherwise we would be near poverty, since he works in industry too. But we don?t have to pay any debts, so it?s fine.

From my childhood experience I promised to myself never to be tight-fisted and always learn about people first before judging them.
It made me a strange person, I admit. But I?m rather proud I never submitted and stayed empathic.

By the way I have a gas and warning shot pistol, I went for a permission.
That was after a white old male neighbor asked me whether I am not afraid to live alone. That was at a time my husband went to work in a foreign country for his company, which he does often.
And I started to keep dogs then.

Now you know most about me. Thank you kindly for listening.