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Author Topic: A gift that keeps on giving  (Read 4834 times)

Offline kathyp

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2019, 11:00:02 am »
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I thougth there were taxes on goods you purchased? I remember taxes being even different from one county to the next?

Sales tax.  It's a little different than a VAT tax.  It is a tax on the final purchase price.  VAT adds tax all along the path of production and sale.

Yes, taxes depend on where you live.  There are federal taxes for SSI, Medicare, the federal gas tax, and others depending on what you are doing. States have taxes too and they are often more than federal taxes in total.  Those are usually sales tax, property tax, income tax, gas tax, and depending on where you live, a tax on the air you breath!  :-D

In my state there is no sales tax, in Washington state, there is no income tax.  That sounds really good, but they get you with high "fees" for things like car registration, gas, etc.

In the design of the US, the states were meant to have more power than the federal government.  This way, if we did not like what our state did we had more control.  If we couldn't change things we could move to a state that was more to our liking and needs.

Even with all those taxes, ours are generally lower overall than what is paid in Europe.  We also have graduated taxes so that the wealthy pay more.  You will never hear me bash the wealthy.  They pay the majority of the taxes!


They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline CoolBees

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2019, 02:37:53 pm »
The needs of kids vary -the Brightest kids need an entirely different education than the Average .i.q, and the Challenged have their own varying needs that reasonably should be met.
I agree 100%.   Every school system should have this opportunity for its students as the need arises and they don't.  And it is worse then that because where the need is cannot be supported by local people due to wealth.  The financial burden for education should be spread out among the whole country not each individual local.  The system we have now is nothing more then the haves vs. the have nots. 
Remember, I said based on "effort" not on intellect.  Not everyone can be the brightest star but you can put in the effort to do what you are capable of doing.

Hmm - not sure I understood you response there - but I'm a little slow sometimes ...

There are 2 main approaches to structuring a society ...

Equal opportunity - where every person is given an equal chance to succeed as they enter this world. Their personal choices determine where they end up. This is the Conservative approach to go government.

OR

Equal Outcome - where everyone is provided an equal share, regardless of what they input. This includes an equal education, and equal pay later in life. This is the Socialist/Communist/Progressive approach to government.


Keep in mind that Equal Opportunity accounts for each person's talents and therefore does not provide an equal education - rather an equal system where each has the opportunity to keep rising, based on their intellect, and hard work ethics. Example: everyone is provided and Equal Opportunity to go to Princeton University - but only those that were the smartest AND worked the hardest are allowed to attend and later go onto a career as a highly paid Rocket Scientist (or whatever)

Conversely, Equal Outcome provides a single path of equal educational. Later, individual inputs of hard work and individual talent are balanced out with equal pay. Example: everyone gets to go to Princeton, but the education level provided has to be reduced so that the lowest intellect/work ethic combination can graduate.

Which approach were you supporting with your statement? ... if you could clarify for me please?

Alan
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2019, 02:57:05 pm »
Ben, it's your business what you do, but it would not take a minute to write "He finally came around", or "He never came around". If you ever leave a post dangling like that again, I will block you and never read another of your posts.

Ben,

I won't go as far as Iddee, but of course we want to know the end of your story -- shaggy dog or otherwise.  We woildn't have read that far if not interested, but I for one feel a bit cheated.  Finish the bliking story, man.  I know my patience (with the dog) would have run out long before yours.  Some dogs and some people are so damaged they are beyond help, I think, and when we've done all we can for them, we simply have to give up and protect ourselves and society.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline kathyp

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2019, 03:14:23 pm »
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The financial burden for education should be spread out among the whole country not each individual local.  The system we have now is nothing more then the haves vs. the have nots.

I don't necessarily disagree with this part.  Right now the haves pay for public education and the have nots get a free ride.  I would be far happier paying for public education through HS if we had school choice.  Right now I am paying for government-run education which leaves both smart/driven, and slower students in the dust and focuses on getting the muddy middle to graduation.

Where I disagree is with your idea that the public schools should be run on a national level.   Education stamped out like shortbread cookies is going to leave a lot of kids uneducated at the lower level.  It's already happening.  My state has money but has one of the worst graduation rates.  They throw more money at it routinely but the problem is not lack of spending, it is the wasteful bureaucracy.  in this leftist state, we finally got a Republican Secretary of State.  One of the first things he did was an audit of the public school system.  Among other waste, he found two retirement parties that spent over 30,000 dollars each.  How does this advance learning?  Additionally, the benefit and retirement package for public employees is HUGE and they do not pay into it.
The larger the bureaucracy, the bigger the waste of money and lower the accountability. 

The public education system in this country is broken in a way that can't be fixed.  Time to scrap it and try something else.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline jvalentour

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2019, 04:17:35 pm »
RE:  Cost of Education per Child in Ohio

I took a moment to compare costs of education in my state.  I wanted to get an idea of who was paying.

In my local district, Centerville, Ohio, the cost is approximately $10,000 per student.  Of the $10,000, 70% is paid in local taxes.  30% is paid in state and federal tax.  Since the locals pay into federal and state as well we can just estimate that the local population pays about 72% of all the costs to educate their children.  Centerville is considered a wealthy district.

In a neighboring district, City of Dayton, the cost is approximately $13,000 per student.  Of the $13,000, 20% is paid in local tax.  80% is paid in state and federal tax.  We can estimate that the locals in the City of Dayton pay about 22% of their children's education.  We could also say that the citizens of Centerville are paying a piece of the City of Dayton Education.  Dayton is considered a poor district.

The numbers signify that the middle class and wealthy are paying a disproportionate share of the education expenses in Ohio.  The wealthy and middle class districts are forced to fund education thru local levies because the state and feds have deemed them wealthy and can support themselves, therefore, have reduced the fed and state contribution. 

My estimates are not exact, I expect the middle class actually bears a higher burden than I attempted to illustrate. 

For your reference:
http://education.ohio.gov/Topics/Finance-and-Funding/Finance-Related-Data/Expenditure-and-Revenue/Expenditure-Per-Pupil-Rankings

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2019, 05:15:03 pm »
Ben, it's your business what you do, but it would not take a minute to write "He finally came around", or "He never came around". If you ever leave a post dangling like that again, I will block you and never read another of your posts.

AT EASE SOLDIER!
I had been up with very little sleep for the past several  days and nights. Between taking care of my dad back and forth to the hospital day and night. Taking care of my business, and taking care of my families needs. I have been on the go. While sitting up with my dad it has been my pleasure to talk, reason, and debate with my friends here. That was until my dad took a turn for the worse. I consider each of you my friend irregardless of your opinion of me, or weather you do or do not agree with me, at least we can talk, discuss and try to express, and listen to others views. I had become, completely worn out without sleep or rest. Now we all have situations, circumstances beyond our control in life to deal with and take care of. There are different seasons for everyone. Several continuous days left me with my eyes barely open, and exhausted.  I started out to answer Sibylle , Never intending to go so deep and so long. There comes a point that our bodies have to have sleep. I reached that point!! The post had already become to long as it was, maybe the longest post I have made here. And no SOLDIER, I was not going to short cut it, without a COMPLETED expiation. And the subject did end with the dog and quiet well, I may add. Now, looking back, I should have simply answered her in a PM or waited until today to answer her post, but I didn't!  Now, EVER since I have BEEN here, I have NEVER no NEVER heard you threaten to block anyone.. Under ANY circumstances. And for this I have bit my lip. I have restrained my speech, So do what you feel you need to do. Once again I am disappointed in you .  DISMISSED...

To the rest of you I send out my humblest apologies, I will happily send the rest of the story when all stabilizes here. I sincerely hope non of the rest of you feel as ill, toward me about this as (Mr THICK Skin)


Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"

Offline Acebird

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2019, 05:53:41 pm »

There are 2 main approaches to structuring a society ...

Equal opportunity - where every person is given an equal chance to succeed as they enter this world. Their personal choices determine where they end up. This is the Conservative approach to go government.

OR

Equal Outcome - where everyone is provided an equal share, regardless of what they input. This includes an equal education, and equal pay later in life. This is the Socialist/Communist/Progressive approach to government.

Alan

Only two Alan?  I don't think so.  There are a number of mixes and matches of the two systems you stated.  Most systems state wide are a system of wealth and segregation.  It is far worse here in FL then it is in NY but both states do the same.
Me personally, I am totally against the concept of too dumb to fail and lowering the standards so no one fails.  But I am all for equalizing education so that those that want to succeed are not limited by their family income.  That leaves too many good brains left behind.  When that happens the whole country suffers.  Education and vocational training is too important to the country in a world economy.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Acebird

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2019, 05:57:07 pm »
Ben Wally is being sarcastic.  Sarcasm is a hard form of humor to get across with just a type writer.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2019, 06:04:56 pm »
Ben Wally is being sarcastic.  Sarcasm is a hard form of humor to get across with just a type writer.

Ace, I hope your right. As you see I didn't take it that way. And let me add. If anyone would know it would be you !  You two crack me up!! 😊 Thanks Ace for speaking out for our friend..
Phillip
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 06:21:44 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline CoolBees

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #69 on: January 25, 2019, 06:10:12 pm »
Only two Alan?  I don't think so.  There are a number of mixes and matches of the two systems you stated.  Most systems state wide are a system of wealth and segregation.  It is far worse here in FL then it is in NY but both states do the same.
Me personally, I am totally against the concept of too dumb to fail and lowering the standards so no one fails.  But I am all for equalizing education so that those that want to succeed are not limited by their family income.  That leaves too many good brains left behind.  When that happens the whole country suffers.  Education and vocational training is too important to the country in a world economy.

Brian - Of course you are right, there are many "mixes" of the equations. I only listed The Main avenues of thought - as it were.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "Equalizing Education". Between No Child Left Behind, and Common Core, the curriculum in the schools has been standardized by the Federal government (as I understand it). So - if I understand correctly - every classroom in every school, public and private, is now teaching the same classes from the same books. Whether I agree or not, is for the moment irrelevant. For now, I'm trying to understand what it is about the school system that you would like to see "more equalized"? ... and what you currently see as "Un-Equal" in the education system as is stands today.

The reason I ask: It is my observation that we all want to see the System (country, world, Education, etc) fixed and/or improved - you, me, and most everyone else. However, we don't all see the same problems, we don't communicate with each other (nearly enough), and so we end up "At Odds". If we communicate together, we may just find that we are really all on the same page. Just my thoughts.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline jvalentour

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #70 on: January 25, 2019, 07:38:03 pm »
Ben,
iddee is too curious to block anyone. 
Perhaps we should add /S at the end of our comment.
/S= sarcasm

Offline kathyp

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #71 on: January 25, 2019, 07:55:12 pm »
Quote
But I am all for equalizing education so that those that want to succeed are not limited by their family income.  That leaves too many good brains left behind.  When that happens the whole country suffers.  Education and vocational training is too important to the country in a world economy.

School choice fixes this without the feds taking over
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #72 on: January 25, 2019, 10:53:30 pm »
Ben,
iddee is too curious to block anyone. 
Perhaps we should add /S at the end of our comment.
/S= sarcasm

Thanks jvalentour, Perhaps he would like to add horses   //s to mine.  He has every right.  My dad took a real bad turn for the worse, Double pneumonia intensive care not counting the other problems he went for in the first place. I would like to ask all my Christian friends to pray for him. Thanks friends for your PM's  I hope to answer you soon. So much going on.

Thanks, Phillip

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2019, 04:34:34 am »
I would like to ask all my Christian friends to pray for him.

I?m not exactly a christian, but I will pray for you anyway if you will be so kind to accept this.

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2019, 04:49:14 am »
Our school system right now changes very much.

Many parents are afraid that less intelligent students could worsen the level. Especially when refugees and immigrants are in classes.
That's why they are looking for private schools. This divides society and promotes prejudice.

In the past it was normal to send students with difficulties to special special needs schools, after which they could better survive in the society.
But in the process of equality, the parents of these students want an inclusion.

This is very bad because it does not help anyone. The special and special schools should be seen positively again.

Also, there has been a trend that teachers are often overwhelmed with today's students and do not want to make educational efforts. The behavior of the students has become much more difficult because many parents work both and have less time and desire for education, in addition to the cultural differences.

The education and recognition of every work-related effort, be it manual or intellectual, is a major challenge that we must face today.

In Germany, the tax system is very unfair. The rich have many more opportunities for tax evasion and are taxed equally in percentage terms which leads to big income difference. This was done because they were believed to be more supportive of the economy. But this has proved to be a mistake, the money goes abroad and the brunt of the tax is provided by the middle class.

When elected today, no party is chosen because it has the appropriate future versions.
It is chosen as revenge a party that contradicts the other, as a protest, so to speak.


Offline iddee

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2019, 07:29:25 am »
""at least we can talk, discuss and try to express,""

At 6 AM, and the coffee not finished perking, I might be just a BIT irritable. Then to be left on the cliff like that took me by surprise and I hit back.

Unless a person is perfect, they will irritate someone now and then. I think we both did that there. Life goes on. Consider your post a mistake and mine a reprimand. Now we continue with life.

NO GRUDGES  Sorry about your dad.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2019, 08:01:28 am »
""at least we can talk, discuss and try to express,""

At 6 AM, and the coffee not finished perking, I might be just a BIT irritable. Then to be left on the cliff like that took me by surprise and I hit back.

Unless a person is perfect, they will irritate someone now and then. I think we both did that there. Life goes on. Consider your post a mistake and mine a reprimand. Now we continue with life.

NO GRUDGES  Sorry about your dad.

No grudges here either you old grump! 😊😁. Thanks, headed  back to check on him. PS I will be your wing man any time... Phillip

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #77 on: January 26, 2019, 09:00:28 am »
Our school system right now changes very much.

Many parents are afraid that less intelligent students could worsen the level. Especially when refugees and immigrants are in classes.
That's why they are looking for private schools. This divides society and promotes prejudice.

In the past it was normal to send students with difficulties to special special needs schools, after which they could better survive in the society.
But in the process of equality, the parents of these students want an inclusion.

This is very bad because it does not help anyone. The special and special schools should be seen positively again.

Also, there has been a trend that teachers are often overwhelmed with today's students and do not want to make educational efforts. The behavior of the students has become much more difficult because many parents work both and have less time and desire for education, in addition to the cultural differences.

The education and recognition of every work-related effort, be it manual or intellectual, is a major challenge that we must face today.

In Germany, the tax system is very unfair. The rich have many more opportunities for tax evasion and are taxed equally in percentage terms which leads to big income difference. This was done because they were believed to be more supportive of the economy. But this has proved to be a mistake, the money goes abroad and the brunt of the tax is provided by the middle class.

When elected today, no party is chosen because it has the appropriate future versions.
It is chosen as revenge a party that contradicts the other, as a protest, so to speak.

You got a very negative outlook on life in Germany!

As a former teacher I have to say: It is not the students where both parents work that are a problem. The worst are those where both parents still lie in bed when the student has to go to school....

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2019, 10:47:21 am »
My husband was a former teacher too, but it was 25 years ago and what I hear from my company co-workers who are parents with schoolkids is exactly what I posted.

I don?t know anyone who lies in bed when his child leaves to go to school, but I know some who are at the day job before the child has to rise.

And what I and my husband hears from teacher aquaintances is exactly what I said too. Times have changed much the last years, starting with agenda 10.

And yes, we plan to move to sweden in old age, which regulates even more but not in such an unjust way. With our low pensions we will have a good life there, not be poor like here because of those running expenses.

The next ten years we will be forced to insulate our home or pay penalty tax, have a new heating system because we still have oil heating, pay more nursing care insurance, pay more land tax, pay more for energy....this will not stop when we are retired.
Plus we will not get any money selling our diesel car so maybe pay some penalty tax for keeping it.

Right now we pay half our income for all duties and pension will be under 50% of our last income from which we have to pay the social charges furthermore.

By the way the wife of an official get?s a pension paid by tax payers higher than my husband?s and my today?s income together, although she never paid into that system.
That?s more unfair than paying welfare to those in need.


« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 11:10:49 am by SiWolKe »

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A gift that keeps on giving
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2019, 11:24:59 am »
I would like to ask all my Christian friends to pray for him.

I?m not exactly a christian, but I will pray for you anyway if you will be so kind to accept this.

Thank you so much. Your kindness and love is always accepted,  but not only accepted, also  very much appreciated! I am happy to know you and call you friend! You speak from a honest heart, no matter the subject.  My Christian Bible tells me that God Loves a Honest heart ❤️!!! 
Thank you Sibylle,

Sincerely, Phillip
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 11:40:38 am by Ben Framed »