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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2019, 04:24:16 pm »
The following has nothing to do with this topics headline "A thought about the border" But since the topic has been totally hijacked and thrown to the side ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

We should desire commerce, and trade, but forming alliances that have very little to do with trade and commerce, can lead to much danger and misunderstandings such as alliances formed  for the purpose forming international power. I believe this to be a great danger to all involved, causing division, strife, etc to good people from different countries, who, in their hearts are desiring good, not only for their on country but others as well.   I will go a  bit further, as I am sure to cause some controversy .  It is my personal sorrow that my country ever got involved in the Unided Nations. NATO or any entanglement which pushes, pulls, or seeks international power. These and other organizations give the most rich, the most powerful, bankers, etc,  the world over,  a more concentrated target in which to manipulate with money and power, making an avenue, in which to harness  these powers, to do their personal bidding through such organizations, satisfying their own greed, lust and desires.   All the time pitting the good citizens from each of these countries against one another.    Sad

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2019, 04:28:55 pm »
Putin will be pulling a kinds of strings when
Nord Stream 2 is completed.  What was the reasoning behind getting rid of nuclear power and then start burning more gas?
"reasons" in politics are not always reasonable, I fear. Though I detest nuclear power myself. There is many wind-parks springing up around here. I don`t think electricity is made with the gas.
We don`t have any oil or gas to speak of in Germany, so anybody selling maybe pulling strings.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2019, 04:33:13 pm »
Quote
Just recently the opposition-party (SPD) in GErmany had a votum of its members on some personal decision. They voted and in the end ANOTHER person not even on the role, was put in....

You have a parliamentary system?  I have not studied yours, but in other systems, people basically vote for the party and then the party chooses the representatives including the leader.

Here, we directly elect our representatives and they can be from any party. 

Seems in either system we don't always get what we thought we were electing!   :grin:

I had half a year of American Govnmt in high school, can t remember it all.

Same here. But this time they did a poll inside the party. didn?t heed it, though.
Representatives can be even party-free. In communal parliaments this is almost half. But also on state-level and federal level.
As a second vote you get to vote the party you like. So seats in parliament are given for a) percentage b) directly elected candidates. All direct candidtates get a seat, so there usually are some more representatives in parliament then would be if only by percentage.
Guess it is a bit more "just", having two votes.
If there is a guy or gal you want in parliament, 1st vote. But you might consider another party better, 2nd vote.

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #103 on: February 02, 2019, 06:24:44 am »
INF cancelled,
so what do we do now?

Start the nuclear arms race again? USA-Russia-China and we are in between?


Offline Acebird

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2019, 09:00:40 am »
INF cancelled,
so what do we do now?
As citizens?  Nothing.  The treaty was based on out dated equipment that no body is going to make anymore.  The US, Russia, and China are already working and has been, on the next generation world destruction mechanisms.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline jvalentour

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2019, 10:47:58 am »
INF cancelled,
so what do we do now?

Start the nuclear arms race again? USA-Russia-China and we are in between?


No, your country is in the "outs", by choice.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2019, 11:16:07 am »
choice?
which country or rather: which government is undermining the NATO-treaty?

Offline jvalentour

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #107 on: February 02, 2019, 11:30:32 am »
Germany has chosen to spend is wealth on socialist/public welfare programs instead of mutual defense.  I have referenced in the past the readiness of it's armed forces.  Something like 5 out of 125 fighters can fly, 0/5 submarines functional, fat lazy soldiers in Afgan. 
Despite having one of the world's most powerful economy! 
This is a choice, you want to be passive, you don't get a seat at the table.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2019, 11:37:34 am »
Germany has chosen to spend is wealth on socialist/public welfare programs instead of mutual defense.  I have referenced in the past the readiness of it's armed forces.  Something like 5 out of 125 fighters can fly, 0/5 submarines functional, fat lazy soldiers in Afgan. 
Despite having one of the world's most powerful economy! 
This is a choice, you want to be passive, you don't get a seat at the table.

You are right there.
Germany is busy a lot in international diplomacy, at least.

Offline jvalentour

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2019, 11:42:54 am »
You mean skirting American sanctions against Iran?
or
Forming a EU army and undermining NATO?
or
Supplying EU police to quell the Yellow Vest riots?
or
Selling Nuclear specific products to Iran?
or
Selling ballistic missile specific product to Iran?

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #110 on: February 02, 2019, 11:59:28 am »
well, trying for peaceful solutions instead of using a hammer is what I mean.

Offline kathyp

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #111 on: February 02, 2019, 12:31:33 pm »
Quote
INF cancelled,
so what do we do now?

Start the nuclear arms race again? USA-Russia-China and we are in between?

The treaty was a bad one in the first place.  We now have more nuclear-armed countries and none of them were included in the treaty.  It did not benefit the US because those intermediate range weapons were aimed at Europe and now China aims them at Asia.  All that treaty did was prevent the US from protecting its allies with intermediate range weapons. 

Russia and its surrogates do not keep treaties.  Making a deal with them, or with Iran, Syria, or anyone else in their influence is just a way to limit us and let them do whatever they want to do.  Less a problem for us, than for Europe.

If you want to blame someone for the proliferation of Nukes, you can thank the IAEA and specifically Mohamed Mustafa ElBaradei.  He was either completely incompetent, or complicit in the expansion of nuclear weapons capable countries.

You have always been in between.  That's why we have NATO.  I am not opposed to NATO as a concept, but I am opposed to being the crutch that allows Europe not to figure out how to defend itself. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #112 on: February 02, 2019, 01:51:06 pm »
Germany has chosen to spend is wealth on socialist/public welfare programs instead of mutual defense.  I have referenced in the past the readiness of it's armed forces.  Something like 5 out of 125 fighters can fly, 0/5 submarines functional, fat lazy soldiers in Afgan. 
Despite having one of the world's most powerful economy! 
This is a choice, you want to be passive, you don't get a seat at the table.

The conventional army is a mess, but we never had a professional army until a couple of years ago and now they see this won?t work and it will change.
And we were never allowed nuclear weapons as you hopefully are informed about.

So now I hope the nuclear mid range missiles are directed at China and Germany not again used as a battlefield for the super powers.
In my eyes they can solve their conflicts by using ICBMs.

As it is typical for Trump to twitter before using his brain he cancelled the treaty one day before it?s ending and never considered diplomacy.
I?m tired of the proxy wars the super powers always start.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #113 on: February 02, 2019, 02:23:23 pm »
"Germany not again used as a battlefield".
I don't want Germany to become a battlefield ever again either, or any other country for that matter. We in America, understand the hurt and misery of a war as once on our home grounds. We had a terrible war here. A war between ourselves the Civil War. The South suffered horribly, so did the North, So many lives lost, so many crippled young men, so much destruction of property, what a terrible waste. There were records of brothers fighting, one on one side, and one on the other. "Brother against Brother" The scars of that war are still present. Sad for any nation to suffer with war.

Offline kathyp

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #114 on: February 02, 2019, 02:37:17 pm »
Quote
As it is typical for Trump to twitter before using his brain he cancelled the treaty one day before it?s ending and never considered diplomacy.
I?m tired of the proxy wars the super powers always start.

Canceling the treaty has been talked about for a long time.  It has never worked.  The difference is that Trump acts on things.  Bush pulled out of the ABM treaty so that we could continue to develop our missile defense. 

Russia does not honor its treaties.  Our law requires that we honor ours.  There is no reason to continue in a treaty that 1. does not include all nuclear-armed countries and then 2. puts us (and you) at a disadvantage. 

No one likes proxy wars, but after the two world wars I think a lot of people thought it preferable to large nations slaughtering each other. And let's face it, proxy wars are not a new thing.   I don't think France would have helped the US against England if they had not seen the benefit to the English being caught up in war here.

Europe is in the middle or on the edge of some very bad actors.  That is not your fault.  It's just geography. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #115 on: February 02, 2019, 02:50:18 pm »
Kathy, the threats are getting bigger for all countries by the use of the submarines.

Quote
fat lazy soldiers in Afgan. 
I don?t care for this insult.

When my husband was with the US army in Ulm half of the soldiers were alcoholics or drug addicts.
They were not even able to install a radio antenna. The germans had to help them, and the germans were only drafted for 18 months, being mandatory.
Only the coloured were intelligent and helpful he said.

No offense meant to those US army people who behaved decent.

Offline jvalentour

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #116 on: February 02, 2019, 03:09:29 pm »
SiWolke,
Hold on to your unterhose when you read this:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/german-soldiers-in-afghanistan-cant-shoot

Your media probably hasn't reported that Russia had already built over 100 cruise missiles in violation of the INF Treaty.  China hundreds.  Trump had no choice but to leave the terms of the treaty.  The US seems to always be the bad guy with you people.

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #117 on: February 02, 2019, 03:56:55 pm »
SiWolke,
Hold on to your unterhose when you read this:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/german-soldiers-in-afghanistan-cant-shoot

Your media probably hasn't reported that Russia had already built over 100 cruise missiles in violation of the INF Treaty.  China hundreds.  Trump had no choice but to leave the terms of the treaty.  The US seems to always be the bad guy with you people.

Haha, well he was the first leaving the treaty like he is always first in twittering. He had no choice, haha. That?s funny. There is always a choice in life as in politics, but he has no restraint!
We will see whether he observed the treaty himself! News said the US did not also.

I?m a friend to the US, by the way, and most are. Trump is not US. And I?m not disagreeing with all he says.

About afghanistan, we are not used to kill people in wars after the sWW. I rather like the story. Respect, you german soldiers who have more interest in defense than in attack!

Quote
the Bild, a German tabloid that is Europe?s highest-circulation newspaper.
Bild is the most populist newspaper we have and prints all fake news they get their hands on. They would even interview a hamberder complaining why he does not wants to be eaten. Haha.

I rather pity any soldier to have to use a gun who is so whack it doesn?t strike but it?s not the fault of the soldier.
And the story about such guns is known and true and sad.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 04:18:47 pm by SiWolKe »

Offline kathyp

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #118 on: February 02, 2019, 04:18:00 pm »
Quote
Haha, well he was the first leaving the treaty like he is always first in twittering. He had no choice, haha. There is always a choice in life as in politics, but he has no restraint!
We will see whether he observed the treaty himself! News said the US did not also.

About afghanistan, we are not used to kill people in wars after the sWW. I rather like the story. Respect, you german soldiers who have more interest in defense than in attack!

Trump acts in what he believes is the best interest of the US.  That does not mean that he's always right.   :grin:  In this case, we have known for a long time that Russia was not honoring the treaty.  It was also a pointless treaty because it only applied to the US and Russia.  We know that both Russian and Chinese surrogates are developing medium-range nuclear weapons.  Getting out of the ABM treaty and getting out of the Russia/US medium range weapons restrictions were smart things to do.  In this case, he made a good call.  A good call for you guys too because you are the targets of Russia and Irans medium range missiles.  We are not. 

Quote
When my husband was with the US army in Ulm half of the soldiers were alcoholics or drug addicts.
They were not even able to install a radio antenna. The germans had to help them, and the germans were only drafted for 18 months, being mandatory.
Only the coloured were intelligent and helpful he said.

No offense meant to those US army people who behaved decent.

Perhaps there was some friction between the German and American military?  I know a lot of American military did not have much respect for the Germans after they decided to only do support and not actually fight.  I know that was a political decision, but it really angry off a lot of the American military.

We don't have mandatory service so the Americans who serve do so by choice.  If they have to kill, they kill.  That is part of the job.  I don't think anyone likes that part, but it is what it is.  For a long time we considered our military a defensive force.  During the cold war we had a policy of not doing first strikes and that carried on to our policies against radical Islam.  It was a mistake.  It led us to do stupid things like try to win hearts and minds in Yemen, which led us to getting a ship blown up in their port.  We didn't kill UBL when we had the chance because there was fear of collateral damage.  That was a mistake. 

When the enemy and its tactics change, the military must adapt.  Mistakes will be made, but sitting around waiting for something to happen is no longer an option.  If we can deter aggression with places like Russia and China, that's a good thing.  We should do that.  When we face people who want to take over the world and create the new caliphate, there is no solution except the kill them. 

The Daily Beast is not really a tabloid.  In fact, they have done some really good reporting over the years.  They are left leaning, but they have some good reporters who do real work, unlike some of our bigger "news" organizations like CNN.  CNN is our new tabloid and unfortunately, they spew crap all over the world. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline SiWolKe

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Re: A thought about the border ...
« Reply #119 on: February 02, 2019, 04:51:24 pm »
Kathy,
I agree with most you say.
But you must understand our past. Aggressive behaviour, it was not permitted by the allies and this restrictions still have an impact on our lives and are not to be laughed at.
I pity the army and I pity the policemen and -women who are insulted, spit at, not respected but it?s slowly changing.
We were a very pacifistic people for a long time but today we are just as divided as your nation is.

Hopefully Trump has started the discussions and diplomatic tries. I read today that China is ready for that. Trump will follow after he plays the macho, he always does.
He wants to feel important, not left out.
If he is an enrichment to the US population we will see after some more time. The shutdown showed he will sell his own grandmother to have his will.

When my husband was with the army there was no friction then, it was the "coldwar" time and both sides rather happy to work together.
The view of the US people concerning europeans changed drastically after Trump was elected. Here it is not as changed, it?s Trump as a person mostly people despise not the US nation.