Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders  (Read 488 times)

Online Ben Framed

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1363
An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders
« on: January 08, 2019, 03:32:59 pm »
Question for educational purposes.   Hello artificially inseminated or if you prefer instrumentally inseminated queen breeders.   I have two starter hives which were started late fall. I purchased the queens  from a gentleman which lives in a similar environment as my own. These bees, so far, seem to be outstanding! Great disposition, hard workers, hygienic, and for the short time they were put together so late in the season, fantastic comb builders, and  nectar collectors. Now when I say I purchased two queens, actually there were more. Each one of these are outstanding. These two in particular, are a little ahead of the others because the frames that were used for these to build upon had more nurse bees and capped  brood in the beginning.  I am so happy and enthused with these bees, that I am seriously considering raising drones from one of these hives,  grafting and raising virgins from the other. Crossing these two by AI. Now, being  these queens are sisters, how long can I continue, in the future, (how many generations), to line breed this particular strain of bee Before I will start seeing negative results?  When I say negative results, I mean inbred qualities that are undesired.  Thanks in advance.
Phillip Hall

Online van from Arkansas

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 380
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas. Had to reset all.
Re: An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2019, 04:29:05 pm »
Mr. Ben, you so noted sisters.  I need specifics: do the sister queens have the the same drone linage?  Were these queens generated by an AI queen with specific drone linage.

Drone linage can be tricky as the saying goes.  Were the drones created by an AI queen, 10-12 drones from a single hive.

Due to the fact the AI queens are usually inseminated by 10 drones it?s important too know if the orginal drones were from an AI queen.  Most likely not, I might add.

If the precise lineage is not know, then look at the bees for slight variations.  Variations describe heterozygous {different} whereas an AI queen bred to a single drone creates homozygous {same} offspring.  I mean every bee is an exact copy, exactly the same with homozygous which would be very rare.  I am not addressing inbreeding by accident in nature.

This is liable to leads to discussions on homozygous honeybees which is created by AI bred by a single drone.  Usually this is done for experimental purposes for gene identification, genetic mapping.

I am leaving off a lot of details, possibilities, trying to keep it simple.

If sister queens bred to 10-12 different drones, that?s is 24 dads.  Inbreeding to me would be slight chance to no chance.

Now if M. Bush is reading this, just hang on, there is a lot of info stuffed in that man?s brain and I have deliberately not included issues I deem above and beyond the scope of BeeMaster.  So please be gentle with me, Mr. Bush as well as others, I wish not to confuse by keeping things simple.
Blessings

I am hoping a person does not mention an X link negative trait which throws a kink into all above.  The traits are not known but certainly exists so I avoided.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 05:41:27 pm by Stinger13 »
Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.

Online Ben Framed

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2019, 06:23:50 pm »
Mr. Ben, you so noted sisters.  I need specifics: do the sister queens have the the same drone linage?  Were these queens generated by an AI queen with specific drone linage.

Drone linage can be tricky as the saying goes.  Were the drones created by an AI queen, 10-12 drones from a single hive.

Due to the fact the AI queens are usually inseminated by 10 drones it?s important too know if the orginal drones were from an AI queen.  Most likely not, I might add.

If the precise lineage is not know, then look at the bees for slight variations.  Variations describe heterozygous {different} whereas an AI queen bred to a single drone creates homozygous {same} offspring.  I mean every bee is an exact copy, exactly the same with homozygous which would be very rare.  I am not addressing inbreeding by accident in nature.

This is liable to leads to discussions on homozygous honeybees which is created by AI bred by a single drone.  Usually this is done for experimental purposes for gene identification, genetic mapping.

I am leaving off a lot of details, possibilities, trying to keep it simple.

If sister queens bred to 10-12 different drones, that?s is 24 dads.  Inbreeding to me would be slight chance to no chance.

Now if M. Bush is reading this, just hang on, there is a lot of info stuffed in that man?s brain and I have deliberately not included issues I deem above and beyond the scope of BeeMaster.  So please be gentle with me, Mr. Bush as well as others, I wish not to confuse by keeping things simple.
Blessings

I am hoping a person does not mention an X link negative trait which throws a kink into all above.  The traits are not known but certainly exists so I avoided.

Thanks Mr Van, 👌🏻 I'm holding on😊😁

Online Ben Framed

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2019, 12:41:22 am »
@ Stinger13

Mr Van, I haven't yet found what I am looking for. I am still searching but I did run across the following. I think that you may find a lot of useful information, in geneeal here.

USDA-ARS Bee Labs - eXtension
https://articles.extension.org/pages/21736/usda-ars-bee-labs
May 29, 2015 - The mission of the Honey Bee Breeding, Genetics and Physiology Research Unit is directly related to improving honey bee stock and honey ...

Online Ben Framed

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2019, 01:02:07 am »
@ Stinger13
''Mr. Ben, you so noted sisters.  I need specifics: do the sister queens have the the same drone linage?  Were these queens generated by an AI queen with specific drone linage.

Drone linage can be tricky as the saying goes.  Were the drones created by an AI queen, 10-12 drones from a single hive.''


No Sir, I don't believe that they came form an AI situation, however, they, (the sister queens), look almost identical. Their offspring are almost all the same color from each queen with the same good qualities that I am admiring.  Now some or the first hatchings from these new splits, came from capped brood from feral hives that I cut out of folks homes and gave to the splits in-order to get them off to a good start,  But when the new queens brood hatched, they were all, as far as I can tell, the same in color, a beautiful yellow-ish color. The feral bees were a darker color almost black, including their tails, excluding the hairy parts of their body which are a dark grayish yellow color.  As far as I know, the sister queens, that I bought,  could have indeed been raised form 10 to who knows how many drones and I am assuming as much.   OH may I add, the feral bees are the ones that I had mentioned to beepro, a month or so ago in another post and topic, that I had observed dragging SHB from one of the hives.  But that is a whole other topic. Thanks for your input thus far.
Sincerely, Phillip

Offline sawdstmakr

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 9964
  • Gender: Male
Re: An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2019, 07:29:36 am »
Phillip,
I looked at tha USDA ARS site you posted. There is a lot of good information to read up on there.
Here is just a speck of what is there:

About 10 years ago it was discovered that bees can indeed ?hear? airborne sound in close range, this is through sensing the movement of air particles by the hairlike mechanoreceptors on the antennae. This discovery helped the construction of robot bees that can be directed to dance (by a computer) inside a hive and guide workers to a specific location.

Thanks for posting this. I have added a link to this site on my main screen.
Jim

Online Ben Framed

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2019, 08:28:15 am »
Phillip,
I looked at tha USDA ARS site you posted. There is a lot of good information to read up on there.
Here is just a speck of what is there:

About 10 years ago it was discovered that bees can indeed ?hear? airborne sound in close range, this is through sensing the movement of air particles by the hairlike mechanoreceptors on the antennae. This discovery helped the construction of robot bees that can be directed to dance (by a computer) inside a hive and guide workers to a specific location.

Thanks for posting this. I have added a link to this site on my main screen.
Jim

Your welcome Jim. This site is for sure, an information honey 🍯 hole. I had only scratched the surface and knew immediately that it was worth posting. Thanks for the kind words.
Phillip

Offline robirot

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Gender: Male
    • Finest German Carnolians and more
Re: An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2019, 09:56:02 am »
For that you have to get the inbreed index. Described here: BIENEFELD et al. 1989, Apidologie 20:439-450

At 10% you start seeing adverse effects.  If you reach 20% you need to expect that the hive will fail.

Even not counting the drones you are allready at about 9% ( With risk up to 25%). If the drones are are related, this adds up.

If they are raised and inseminated by the same person you will go a lot higher. So maybe you get one generation.

Online Ben Framed

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2019, 10:18:01 am »
For that you have to get the inbreed index. Described here: BIENEFELD et al. 1989, Apidologie 20:439-450

At 10% you start seeing adverse effects.  If you reach 20% you need to expect that the hive will fail.

Even not counting the drones you are allready at about 9% ( With risk up to 25%). If the drones are are related, this adds up.

If they are raised and inseminated by the same person you will go a lot higher. So maybe you get one generation.

Thanks robirot, The information in this index is preciously what I was hoping to find! Good job, many thanks !!

Offline BEES4U

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 94
  • Gender: Male
    • E. B. LUCAS APIARIES
Re: An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2019, 11:36:10 pm »

1/19/2019.
This will provide some answers:
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/queen_rearing.html

Regards,
Ernie
E. B. LUCAS APIARIES
bees4u.com
(Queen Breeder)

Online Ben Framed

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1363
Re: An (In General) Question for you AI /II Queen Breeders
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2019, 04:15:02 am »

1/19/2019.
This will provide some answers:
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/queen_rearing.html

Regards,
Ernie

Good stuff here Ernie, I missed this somehow when you originally posted. Thanks for sharing the information.
Phillip