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Author Topic: Voting in America  (Read 208 times)

Online kathyp

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Voting in America
« on: November 09, 2018, 02:17:12 pm »
We used to vote on one day.  Absentee ballots were given if there was a good reason you could not vote on that 1st Tuesday in Nov.  You had to apply for them in most states and give your reason.  They were given to people who would not be around because of travel, military service, or disability.  Everyone else voted on voting day, or they didn't vote.  If you did not have ID and proof you lived in the precinct you did not vote.

Now we have early voting that can start over a month before election day.  We have provisional ballots cast by people who probably should not be voting at all, and we already have evidence of fraud with those ballots.  We use electronic voting machines that are plagued with "glitches". We have dead people and DACA folks voting. All this without addressing the magic ballots which are those found after election day and counted, almost always to the benefit of the Democrats. 

Neither side really trusts the system anymore.  There are several things we could do to clean this up.


1. admit that we have a problem and voter/election fraud does exist.
2. purge voter rolls. 
3. require ID and proof of eligibility in a precinct.
4. when someone registers to vote in a new area, a letter/email is immediately sent to old state/area to note address change.
5. vote on one day.  Absentee ballots should be rare and given for a reason.  No early voting.  All votes should have a paper backup.

And teach civics in school.  Voting is not only a right, but a responsibility.  Most kids playing a sport would not think that cheating was OK.  They should be taught to feel the same way about voting.  Winning takes work and you don't always get to win even when you put in the work.  Rioting is not a substitute for doing the work to win or learning to lose with some grace.

We are headed for 3rd world status when it comes to our voting system and it's not OK to have people losing faith in one of our most important rights.




They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Redlands Okie

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2018, 02:26:46 pm »
Agreed

Online Dallasbeek

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2018, 02:48:12 pm »
Absolutely.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline texanbelchers

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2018, 03:36:57 pm »
I generally agree.  Here are some thoughts:

--I like the "idea" of a paper backup, but that creates issues like "hanging chads" and recounts and reconciling the difference and...

--Early voting has been pushed because they cannot provide quick enough service on a single day.  As it is staffing locations is a problem; adding more locations would make that worse.

--I don't see more days as a problem, however, we need to make sure one legal citizen = one vote.  How can we do that when they can't even require an id (photo or not) because it is discriminating.

--Complaints about the electronic voting systems are mostly noise.  Some may have been bad to start with, but just because the interface was designed 15 years ago does not make it a bad system.  If we applied that thought to other items, entire groups of people would be unable to drive a car or operate a washing machine because it isn't a new, flashy, touch-screen interface.

Online kathyp

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2018, 04:35:34 pm »
Quote
--Complaints about the electronic voting systems are mostly noise.  Some may have been bad to start with, but just because the interface was designed 15 years ago does not make it a bad system.  If we applied that thought to other items, entire groups of people would be unable to drive a car or operate a washing machine because it isn't a new, flashy, touch-screen interface.

This may be true, but because many of the systems have no way to verify with a backup, perception becomes reality.

Quote
--I like the "idea" of a paper backup, but that creates issues like "hanging chads" and recounts and reconciling the difference and...

There are paper ballots that don't have chads  :grin:  again, the paper can be counted both by machine and by hand and verified.

I complained about the Oregon vote by mail change, but in reality, it seems to be working pretty well.  it solves the problem of not enough polling places, it provides a paper record, and there is a security check against the signature you provided on your registration. You do not sign the ballot, but you sign the security envelope that you put your ballot in.

It doesn't solve all problems like fraudulent registrations, or people filling in ballots for multiple people and just getting their signature, but overall we seem to have few issues.  It certainly is harder to get the signature of dead people on the envelope!

There's no foolproof system.  Never has been.  I am just watching this business with magically "found" ballots in FL and the provisional ballots in TX and wondering why we had to complicate what was a pretty simple system.  the voting day comes, you vote, and if you are not registered you don't vote. 



 



They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online iddee

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2018, 06:03:43 pm »
In my precinct, we black out the circle next to the name, or just the party if we want to vote party line. Then we insert it into a machine that counts it. That is for all of us that are registered and they can look up our name and address. Otherwise, provisional.  I like early voting since your name is there, waiting to be checked off. If not, you go provisional and don't vote that day. It saves a lot of hassle on Tuesday. Other than that, I agree with KathyP.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Online herbhome

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2018, 09:35:36 pm »
We have essentially the same system as Iddee. It works pretty well but the count takes quite a while. I'm not fond of the idea of voting on computers as they can be infiltrated or corrupted in a lot of ways.

I don't get the idea behind early voting, but I tend to be slow at accepting change.

The Oregon system looks intriguing to me and could encourage fuller participation. Kathy, do you drop the ballot in the mail or into a special box?
Neill

Offline texanbelchers

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2018, 09:53:43 pm »
Scantron for the win....
I certainly haven't researched options.  There are probably many that have been well tested over the years.

We are losing straight party voting; only a few states left that allow it.  It is supposed to encourage more informed voting.   It is hard to be informed when the candidates don't say anything.


Online kathyp

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2018, 05:15:33 pm »
Quote
Kathy, do you drop the ballot in the mail or into a special box?

Either.  I am cheap so I drop mine at the library when I go to town   :cheesy:
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2018, 06:14:17 pm »
voting by letter is free in Germany. no postage needed. different in US?

Online kathyp

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2018, 09:57:08 pm »
Quote
voting by letter is free in Germany. no postage needed. different in US?

ours takes a stamp but there are so many place to drop the ballots there's no need to mail them if you don't want to.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2018, 10:39:12 pm »
There are several things we could do to clean this up.


1. admit that we have a problem and voter/election fraud does exist.
2. purge voter rolls. 
3. require ID and proof of eligibility in a precinct.
4. when someone registers to vote in a new area, a letter/email is immediately sent to old state/area to note address change.
5. vote on one day.  Absentee ballots should be rare and given for a reason.  No early voting.  All votes should have a paper backup.



All systems have problems the question is how bad are the problems.  I am good with requiring people to be ID'ed. That could be done very simply with a finger print and a scanner.  Once you have been identified you get one ballot that is it.  No way to vote twice.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2018, 06:35:16 am »
unless one lives rather remote...

we get a ballot by mail - every registered voter - for each and every election. that way one doen`t even have to be up-to-date as regarding times and places. then we go to the place (sundays for us) and with the ballot and ID you get the list in paper which you put into the urn after making the few choices recommended. or you order a mail-ballot, no stamps required.

as I DID have "American Government" in Highschool: Your voting system still lingers back in the times when elections had to be done by delegates traveling for 1000sof miles on horseback. this results in some missproportions in the house. there is room for change in these times, if desired.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2018, 09:55:59 am »
there is room for change in these times, if desired.
Change is hard to come by when the fox is in charge of the hen house.
Brian Cardinal
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Online sawdstmakr

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2018, 10:20:02 am »
Problem is the fox is in charge of the hen house, Congress. They will only change when the American people join hands and force them.
Jim
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Online kathyp

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Re: Voting in America
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2018, 10:55:21 am »
Quote
this results in some missproportions in the house. there is room for change in these times, if desired.

I don't think this is much of a problem if you are talking about numbers of reps.  I know there is an upper limit on numbers, but the representation of area is pretty well done.  the reason some on the left want a change in this is that they think the representation in the house should be higher for higher population areas which tend to be, surprise, liberal! 

In the senate representation is equal for all states. 

Quote
Your voting system still lingers back in the times when elections had to be done by delegates traveling for 1000sof miles on horseback.

this is true in presidential elections.  there is no reason to have a gap from election to the inauguration of months.  It's also true in some of the congressional rules.  I see no reason they should be in DC for the better part of each year making rules and spending money.  Let them be at home the better part of the year and if something comes up, they can get on the computer or a plane and take care of it.  If they spent time with real people doing real things they might not be such idiots.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville