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Author Topic: Sanctions  (Read 2253 times)

Offline iddee

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2018, 01:37:46 pm »
Sorry, Cider, Reagan didn't pay for hostage release as O'bummer did. Have you forgotten the 51 Americans they were holding at the time?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline kathyp

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2018, 03:00:00 pm »
Quote
you return the money which belonged to the Iranian people. Not hold onto it like a thief.

Lol.  Yes, it would have gone right to the people just as the money Obama sent went right to the people. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online Dallasbeek

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2018, 03:08:22 pm »
Under our law, if you lose something in a burglary and the thief sells it to me, I have only the right to own that thing that the thief possessed.  If the police trace the item to me, they can come take it away (without compensating me, since I have no legitimate claim on the recovered property) and return it to you.  If more than one person can claim a legitimate right to that item, the police confiscate the item and hold it until the claims are sorted out.  If the police (here, the U.S. Or banks in the U.S.) turned the item of property (money) over to the wrong claimant, the rightful claimant would still have a claim against the police (U.S.) for the return of the recovered property.   

In the case of Iran, the U.S. and most nations do not recognize the mullahs and their Islamic Revolutionary henchmen as the legitimate government of Iran.  So when Obama turned over to the mullahs the money belonging to the people of Iran, without recognizing the mullahs as the legitimate government of Iran, it was violating the right of the people of Iran, through their legitimate, recognized government, to that money.  We still owe that money to the legitimate government representing the people of Iran, in my opinion. 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2018, 06:41:46 pm »
Quote: you return the money which belonged to the Iranian people. end quote.
Now that is funny, I don?t care who you are. 😄
A dictator owns all the money except what he allows the people to keep.
Jim

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So....let me get this right....Its OK to sell arms to people like this  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchism_in_Iran .... but not to return monies retained illegally?
I wonder if any government would buy stuff from the US and pay up front at a risk of having their money confiscated on a whim.
You only have to look at Trumps business affairs to see were this attitude originates.
   
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Offline Redlands Okie

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2018, 10:05:37 pm »
Iran was beginning to have serious problems and then Obama eased up and gave them a break. Now we are dealing with the results.

Lots of energy sources out there. All countries are free to pursue them as they see fit. Many have decided to let others solve their problems instead of doing more on their own. Relying on the the small production of oil from Iran is perhaps unwise to say the least.

"Relying on the the small production of oil from Iran is perhaps unwise to say the least"

Iran has the Fourth largest oil reserves in the world, think about the jibe "relying on Iranian oil"  the price of oil will rise on the international oil market, damaging lots of countries. The price rise will benefit Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and Russia whilst damaging the economies of long standing friends.......and what for? the votes of the loony rightists in the mid-term elections! :rolleyes:   


Amount of reserves does not matter. What matters is how much is pumped out and sold. Iran has not been much of a producer for a long time.

Offline Redlands Okie

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2018, 10:08:27 pm »
Sound judgement? Haha.

Most oil is produced synthetically these days. The press are lying when they imply turmoil in the mid east will increase oil prices- they do so to justify the war with Iran they are pushing for. The press is using fear in the form of a threat about oil price hikes to control you and you keep buying into it. Fear is a control mechanism they always use, why do you think so much news is negative.

Iran your worst enemy? Have you stopped to compare your two countries lately? You have no credible external threats.

But by all means go ahead and destroy yet another country and snuff out millions of innocents because your press told you to. If past preformance is a reliable indicator, you wont disappoint.

?Most oil is produced synthetically these days?. Produced from what ?

?snuff out millions of innocents? I guess I missed this in recent history. WW2 maybe ? And that was the Germans and Russians

Offline Redlands Okie

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2018, 10:27:37 pm »
So in spite of regime change in '79 we should have sold the weapons to Iran because that was the deal we made with the former government?  The new government that was holding our people hostage?

Makes perfect leftist sense to me.
If you don't want to deliver the planes which I understand, you return the money which belonged to the Iranian people. Not hold onto it like a thief.


Weapons deals usually involve much more than money. Other agreements are involved. If those agreements are broken then the contracts are void.

The ?new? Iranian powers that be were not part of the contracts or the money involved if I understand things correctly. The money Obama gave back to the new leaders has been used to support Irans political agenda. Would be interesting to know what Saudi Arabia , Israel,  Egypt and other countries in the area have spent to counter Irans use of that money. How many civilians are maimed and dead in Sudan, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, (to name a few) where the money went.

It?s not just the USA having issues with money and Iran. One example is that Germany recently has been having issues with over $300 million that Iran wants back. Seems Germany wants assurances it will not be used for terrorist activities. Hard to do when the Iranian ?leaders? are saying in public what the money has been used for.

Never been to Iran but it seems from what I can find out that the average Iranian citizen has not been benefiting from the ?reclaimed? money.

Offline SilentSkeptic

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2018, 02:52:42 pm »
So disappointed in the responses on here.

What happened to this thread? Maybe I am living on another planet but I am totally confused.

All I asked was how can Iran be your worst enemy?

Iran is a tiny country compared to you. Iran is in a weaker geopolitical position than you, hemmed in by larger rivals. While you exist isolated by the atlantic and pacific.

Crazy. You cant even control who comes into your country and you think Iran is your enemy. You couldnt care less about the 1 million plus illegals walking over your southern border annually...or you would do simething about it. Yet Iran is your enemy.

I've read "Lost Hegemon" by Engdhal, I know your government is waging a psychological war against its own citizens, and your so called free press is a critical part of that.

This is history repeating and reminiscent of how tiny Gemany was your worst enemy, despite you being a continent sized country and friends with the largest empire in history, Britain.

I've noticed an increase in military training exercises in my city, military vehicles with learner drivers turning the commute home into a war zone,  an increase in military job ads, sadly it looks like the decision to invade Iran has already been made.

You dont understand what death means or you would never inflict it on entire nations. Life is but a flicker in what is an eternity of nothingness, why deny others the chance of a fulfilling existence for a war you will complain about as a mistake down the track...which you always do.

Trump might be good economically. But I believe he is acting against majority interest while pretending to be your saviour at the same time. He does things in a hyperbolic manner that alienate your growing minority population against the majority, and also does his best to make you as many enemies internationally as he can. When has he ever even mentioned the word "White" in the context of his voters? Never has.

Dont you find it strange the migrant caravan materialized in the media just as mid terms came up? Who did it benefit? That tells you who was behind it. Trump.

If Trump was genuine he wouldnt feel the need to make his White majority base so many enemies. If he was genuine he would want what was best for America and not act so immature.
Trump just wants to make money for America. He couldnt care less what that America looked like.

I cant stand listening to the media farce anymore- how can you stand listening to it- the way it reflects the mindset of the dual passport holders who run it is amazing.

Governments no longer exist to fix problems, instead their only purpose now is to create them.
"I'm not naive, this is not an isolated move by a senile judge in New York. Because vultures look a lot like the eagles of empires." Cristina Kirchner

Offline SilentSkeptic

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2018, 03:01:53 pm »
You helped incubate the current Iranian government in France.

You invaded Iran and replaced a democratically elected government with a monarchy.

You have no moral authority when it comes to Iran.

Fix your own backyard. Its a mess.
"I'm not naive, this is not an isolated move by a senile judge in New York. Because vultures look a lot like the eagles of empires." Cristina Kirchner

Offline kathyp

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2018, 06:04:55 pm »
Quote
So disappointed in the responses on here.

Only because you didn't get the answers you wanted.

Most of your post is crap, but I'll take one part. 

Quote
  All I asked was how can Iran be your worst enemy?

Iran is a tiny country compared to you. Iran is in a weaker geopolitical position than you, hemmed in by larger rivals. While you exist isolated by the atlantic and pacific.

No one lives in isolation these days.  additionally, Hezbollah, an Iran terrorist group, is everywhere on every continent. 

I don't know that anyone called them our worst enemy, however, they may be the most immediately dangerous enemy.  They have a unique religious view even among Muslims.  They believe that the 12th Imam is here and that it is their destiny to usher him onto the public stage.  What is required for this?  A world in chaos and in particular an uprising of pure Islam and the destruction of Israel.  The 12ers believe it is up to them to create these conditions even if they have to martyr themselves to do it.   

So what makes them a great danger?  They are the most likely to use nukes if they get them.  What have they to lose?  They usher in the Mahdi and they have assured paradise in the process. 

why do the Muslim countries fear Israel?  It is a tiny country surrounded by enemies.

what is interesting in watching this is wondering how much of this Obama knew and agreed with.  Intentionally or not he certainly facilitated Irans advance toward its goal. 



 

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline kathyp

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2018, 06:21:57 pm »
Here is another good one.  This stuff is pumped out to the people daily.  There are tons of them on youtube so we can imagine what is not public.  I have only picked a couple of the shorter videos, but if you want more there are more.

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Redlands Okie

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Sanctions
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2018, 12:24:42 am »
Are the new US sanctions against Iran a step too far?
The US is self sufficient in oil, but not much of the rest of world is. Is it right that the US by unilateral imposition of sanctions will damage lots of the rest of the worlds economies?
Haven't the US got it's client state Israel in the area to sort the problem?     

So disappointed in the responses on here.

What happened to this thread? Maybe I am living on another planet but I am totally confused.

All I asked was how can Iran be your worst enemy?

Iran is a tiny country compared to you. Iran is in a weaker geopolitical position than you, hemmed in by larger rivals. While you exist isolated by the atlantic and pacific.

You dont understand what death means or you would never inflict it on entire nations. Life is but a flicker in what is an eternity of nothingness, why deny others the chance of a fulfilling existence for a war you will complain about as a mistake down the track...which you always do.




Iran promotes and funds a variety of terrorist organizations that create a lot of issues for Irans neighbors and elsewhere. Both in lives lost and economies damaged. So it would seem any tool that was able to help decrease this issue would be a good thing. Sanctions being one tool that does get Irans attention and requires little bloodshed.

Israel as client state of the USA is interesting. A lot of todays issues are the result of the polices set in place after WW 1 involving British and France areas of control and their desire to continue to influence. After all how did Israel get started. Seems I read that the British / United Kingdom had a lot to do with that. And has continued to do help out over the years. France has also.

 Why has Iran leaders not used its potential to become a major beneficial power for its own people and its neighbors instead of causing bloodshed and mayhem ?

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2018, 02:38:50 am »
Here is another good one.  This stuff is pumped out to the people daily.  There are tons of them on youtube so we can imagine what is not public.  I have only picked a couple of the shorter videos, but if you want more there are more.

I am sure Your PR-agencies are doing a much better job at forming Your opinion.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2018, 02:48:18 am »
Are the new US sanctions against Iran a step too far?
The US is self sufficient in oil, but not much of the rest of world is. Is it right that the US by unilateral imposition of sanctions will damage lots of the rest of the worlds economies?
Haven't the US got it's client state Israel in the area to sort the problem?     

So disappointed in the responses on here.

What happened to this thread? Maybe I am living on another planet but I am totally confused.

All I asked was how can Iran be your worst enemy?

Iran is a tiny country compared to you. Iran is in a weaker geopolitical position than you, hemmed in by larger rivals. While you exist isolated by the atlantic and pacific.

You dont understand what death means or you would never inflict it on entire nations. Life is but a flicker in what is an eternity of nothingness, why deny others the chance of a fulfilling existence for a war you will complain about as a mistake down the track...which you always do.




Iran promotes and funds a variety of terrorist organizations that create a lot of issues for Irans neighbors and elsewhere. Both in lives lost and economies damaged. So it would seem any tool that was able to help decrease this issue would be a good thing. Sanctions being one tool that does get Irans attention and requires little bloodshed.

Israel as client state of the USA is interesting. A lot of todays issues are the result of the polices set in place after WW 1 involving British and France areas of control and their desire to continue to influence. After all how did Israel get started. Seems I read that the British / United Kingdom had a lot to do with that. And has continued to do help out over the years. France has also.

 Why has Iran leaders not used its potential to become a major beneficial power for its own people and its neighbors instead of causing bloodshed and mayhem ?

Iran was in the zone of british influence. when Iran chose a democratic government which did some good for its people by taking the oil-exploitation out of britsh hands, UK and USA managed a regime-change and put a monarch in place who was like a pet to US and UK. population did not do well under him. so there was a revolt.
regime changes are not an allowed means in my opinion.
The Iranian people is very proud of its country. They have a history of culture a lot longer than Europe or any country having its roots in Europe.
But they would not be the enemies of the US if the US propaganda wouldn`t make them to be just that successfully. As is, this view is exportet to all western countries...

Offline SilentSkeptic

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2018, 08:26:46 am »
Repeating media originated talking points and getting caught up in their prissy false dialect isnt thinking.

I havent watched the news for 12 months now. I stopped watching after Trump demonstrated he was completely unfit for any leadership role after making the decision to engage in war with Syria based solely on his daughters emotional whims.

What happened to America First?!!!!!

Trump is acting the populist comedic charicature they like to portray all populist leaders in the guise of, so nobody takes them seriously. The formula works.

Reading the latest news on Iran and the rhetoric from the US is vicious. Why?!

Trying to justify military action in Iran shows you cant think about your own country critically and therefore are not a legitimate source. Everyone knows Iran is the last domino to fall in order for Israel to gain military supremacy over the entire middle east.

Only a matter of time before they want military supremacy over you.

I was using this place to gauge opinion in America, but its gotten to a point where you are letting a hostile media divide your country with stupid issues that its boring to read.

You wont last 20, let alone 200, years, with a hostile media and your multicultural demigraphic.
"I'm not naive, this is not an isolated move by a senile judge in New York. Because vultures look a lot like the eagles of empires." Cristina Kirchner

Offline SilentSkeptic

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2018, 08:37:40 am »
Quote
So disappointed in the responses on here.

Only because you didn't get the answers you wanted.

Most of your post is crap, but I'll take one part. 

Quote
  All I asked was how can Iran be your worst enemy?

Iran is a tiny country compared to you. Iran is in a weaker geopolitical position than you, hemmed in by larger rivals. While you exist isolated by the atlantic and pacific.

No one lives in isolation these days.  additionally, Hezbollah, an Iran terrorist group, is everywhere on every continent. 

I don't know that anyone called them our worst enemy, however, they may be the most immediately dangerous enemy.  They have a unique religious view even among Muslims.  They believe that the 12th Imam is here and that it is their destiny to usher him onto the public stage.  What is required for this?  A world in chaos and in particular an uprising of pure Islam and the destruction of Israel.  The 12ers believe it is up to them to create these conditions even if they have to martyr themselves to do it.   

So what makes them a great danger?  They are the most likely to use nukes if they get them.  What have they to lose?  They usher in the Mahdi and they have assured paradise in the process. 

why do the Muslim countries fear Israel?  It is a tiny country surrounded by enemies.

what is interesting in watching this is wondering how much of this Obama knew and agreed with.  Intentionally or not he certainly facilitated Irans advance toward its goal. 



Great example you chose here. Except you forgot to add the part where Israel has similar views
regarding the prerequisites required for their messiah to come.

You also miss the part where your gov propped up all these extremist islamic schools for the sole purpose of destabilising the region in order to enact the Israelis religious prophecy.

You expect me to believe a nation like Iran that has been invaded numerous times by you in recent history and that has faced massive internal disruption instigated by you, somehow posseses the capabilities to create an international terror network?

Look at the size to population ratio of Iran, it doesnt posses the resources to pull that feat off.

It makes more sense that the Jewish dyaspora, who make up the richest 1% everywhere they exist , and who are international, and who are what is referred to as "the deep state" are behind this.

Your gov is hostile to your own interests. All these shootings, terror attacks, are looking more and more unorganic by the day.

Trump and Israel have what they need, unwavering loyal supporters.






« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 09:28:58 am by SilentSkeptic »
"I'm not naive, this is not an isolated move by a senile judge in New York. Because vultures look a lot like the eagles of empires." Cristina Kirchner

Offline kathyp

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2018, 01:37:38 pm »
Quote
Great example you chose here. Except you forgot to add the part where Israel has similar views
regarding the prerequisites required for their messiah to come.

A lot of religions have similar end times prophecies.  The difference is that Iran has openly embraced their perceived role as the facilitator of those prophecies.

Look, we know what you are and because of what you are you are not interested in conversation.  You are interested in pushing an anti-Semitic agenda.  You asked why some of us thought Iran was a danger and I gave you my reasons.  Take it or leave it.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Redlands Okie

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2018, 02:36:05 pm »
Quote
So disappointed in the responses on here.

Only because you didn't get the answers you wanted.

Most of your post is crap, but I'll take one part. 

Quote
  All I asked was how can Iran be your worst enemy?

Iran is a tiny country compared to you. Iran is in a weaker geopolitical position than you, hemmed in by larger rivals. While you exist isolated by the atlantic and pacific.

No one lives in isolation these days.  additionally, Hezbollah, an Iran terrorist group, is everywhere on every continent. 

I don't know that anyone called them our worst enemy, however, they may be the most immediately dangerous enemy.  They have a unique religious view even among Muslims.  They believe that the 12th Imam is here and that it is their destiny to usher him onto the public stage.  What is required for this?  A world in chaos and in particular an uprising of pure Islam and the destruction of Israel.  The 12ers believe it is up to them to create these conditions even if they have to martyr themselves to do it.   

So what makes them a great danger?  They are the most likely to use nukes if they get them.  What have they to lose?  They usher in the Mahdi and they have assured paradise in the process. 

why do the Muslim countries fear Israel?  It is a tiny country surrounded by enemies.

what is interesting in watching this is wondering how much of this Obama knew and agreed with.  Intentionally or not he certainly facilitated Irans advance toward its goal. 



Great example you chose here. Except you forgot to add the part where Israel has similar views
regarding the prerequisites required for their messiah to come.

You also miss the part where your gov propped up all these extremist islamic schools for the sole purpose of destabilising the region in order to enact the Israelis religious prophecy.

You expect me to believe a nation like Iran that has been invaded numerous times by you in recent history and that has faced massive internal disruption instigated by you, somehow posseses the capabilities to create an international terror network?

Look at the size to population ratio of Iran, it doesnt posses the resources to pull that feat off.

It makes more sense that the Jewish dyaspora, who make up the richest 1% everywhere they exist , and who are international, and who are what is referred to as "the deep state" are behind this.

Your gov is hostile to your own interests. All these shootings, terror attacks, are looking more and more unorganic by the day.

Trump and Israel have what they need, unwavering loyal supporters.


Who and when has Iran been invaded in recent history by someone other than Iraq?


Offline SilentSkeptic

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2018, 01:44:05 am »
You are interested in pushing an anti-Semitic agenda. You asked why some of us thought Iran was a danger and I gave you my reasons.  Take it or leave it.


The only one pushing an anti-Semitic agenda is you lot with the derogatory way you speak about the peoples of the Middle East. You are Islam haters. I am merely scrutinizing Jews.

Even if we accept your argument the media stories are legitimate, that still doesnt explain the immature way Trump is carrying on with the sanctions, and the game of thrones reference.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 09:53:45 am by SilentSkeptic »
"I'm not naive, this is not an isolated move by a senile judge in New York. Because vultures look a lot like the eagles of empires." Cristina Kirchner

Offline jvalentour

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2018, 09:42:09 am »
By most people's standards, you are the crazy one.


https://heathenwomen.com/2016/09/02/nemos-antisemitic-universe/

Even liberal Youtube thinks you're nuts.