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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Sanctions
« on: November 03, 2018, 08:13:11 pm »
Are the new US sanctions against Iran a step too far?
The US is self sufficient in oil, but not much of the rest of world is. Is it right that the US by unilateral imposition of sanctions will damage lots of the rest of the worlds economies?
Haven't the US got it's client state Israel in the area to sort the problem?     
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 11:05:03 am by cidersabuzzin »
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2018, 08:35:45 am »
US sanctions without the rest of the world following along is kind of pointless.  Sanctions were totally ineffective against Iran even with the rest of the world on board which is why Obama changed the method of getting Iran to the negotiation table and succeeded.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2018, 09:06:07 am »
The only thing that obama succeeded in doing was give our worst enemy, Iran, $150 billion, 1.8 billion was in cash and nothing in return.
Jim

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2018, 11:03:57 am »
The only thing that obama succeeded in doing was give our worst enemy, Iran, $150 billion, 1.8 billion was in cash and nothing in return.
Jim
Who did the $1.8bn belong to?
Maybe this will help.
https://www.quora.com/Is-Donald-Trump-right-that-the-US-gave-Iran-150-billion-dollars
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 11:42:55 am by cidersabuzzin »
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Offline Acebird

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2018, 09:22:31 pm »
Jim are worse enemy is Putin because he has your man in his pocket.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Redlands Okie

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Sanctions
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2018, 09:26:53 pm »
Iran was beginning to have serious problems and then Obama eased up and gave them a break. Now we are dealing with the results.

Lots of energy sources out there. All countries are free to pursue them as they see fit. Many have decided to let others solve their problems instead of doing more on their own. Relying on the the small production of oil from Iran is perhaps unwise to say the least.

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2018, 04:51:32 am »
Iran was beginning to have serious problems and then Obama eased up and gave them a break. Now we are dealing with the results.

Lots of energy sources out there. All countries are free to pursue them as they see fit. Many have decided to let others solve their problems instead of doing more on their own. Relying on the the small production of oil from Iran is perhaps unwise to say the least.

"Relying on the the small production of oil from Iran is perhaps unwise to say the least"

Iran has the Fourth largest oil reserves in the world, think about the jibe "relying on Iranian oil"  the price of oil will rise on the international oil market, damaging lots of countries. The price rise will benefit Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and Russia whilst damaging the economies of long standing friends.......and what for? the votes of the loony rightists in the mid-term elections! :rolleyes:     
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 07:52:59 am by cidersabuzzin »
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2018, 05:04:48 am »
Iran was beginning to have serious problems and then Obama eased up and gave them a break. Now we are dealing with the results.

Lots of energy sources out there. All countries are free to pursue them as they see fit. Many have decided to let others solve their problems instead of doing more on their own. Relying on the the small production of oil from Iran is perhaps unwise to say the least.

"Relying on the the small production of oil from Iran is perhaps unwise to say the"

Iran has the Fourth largest oil reserves in the world, think about the jibe "relying on Iranian oil"  the price of oil will rise on the international oil market, damaging lots of countries. The price rise will benefit Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and Russia whilst damaging the economies of long standing friends.......and what for? the votes of the loony rightists in the mid-term elections! :rolleyes:   

this sounds like a sound jugdement of the situation.

by the way: Iran has been long-time friends with the US (and of course Israel), this has changed a bit recently....
don?t overlook history.

we are talking oil here. just because politicians are down-sizing its importance in words doesnt change a thing about ?what goes on in reality.

the US is just getting to be the largest oil-exploiter world-wide. so these maneuvers will suit the Bushs and whoeverelse in the oil-business in the US just fine, too. Nepotism, together with the Saudis also.

Offline SilentSkeptic

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2018, 12:02:07 pm »
Sound judgement? Haha.

Most oil is produced synthetically these days. The press are lying when they imply turmoil in the mid east will increase oil prices- they do so to justify the war with Iran they are pushing for. The press is using fear in the form of a threat about oil price hikes to control you and you keep buying into it. Fear is a control mechanism they always use, why do you think so much news is negative.

Iran your worst enemy? Have you stopped to compare your two countries lately? You have no credible external threats.

But by all means go ahead and destroy yet another country and snuff out millions of innocents because your press told you to. If past preformance is a reliable indicator, you wont disappoint.
"I'm not naive, this is not an isolated move by a senile judge in New York. Because vultures look a lot like the eagles of empires." Cristina Kirchner

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2018, 01:09:34 pm »
Sound judgement? Haha.

Most oil is produced synthetically these days. The press are lying when they imply turmoil in the mid east will increase oil prices- they do so to justify the war with Iran they are pushing for. The press is using fear in the form of a threat about oil price hikes to control you and you keep buying into it. Fear is a control mechanism they always use, why do you think so much news is negative.

Iran your worst enemy? Have you stopped to compare your two countries lately? You have no credible external threats.

But by all means go ahead and destroy yet another country and snuff out millions of innocents because your press told you to. If past preformance is a reliable indicator, you wont disappoint.

I am with you as concerning the "enemy"-part. But do consider I am not a US-citizen, if I am mistaken for that.
"oil" is not only lubricant. that is the least part. Its fuel I am talking about.

Offline kathyp

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2018, 02:35:05 pm »
Sanctions against Iran have been in place in one form or another for decades and for multiple reasons.  The fact that our "allies" choose to support a state sponsor of terrorism and a wannabe nuke power run by nutters is more a problem for them than us.  If Iran goes rogue with nukes it will be the Europeans who get the worst of the result.

To look at Obamas Iran policies without looking at his middle east policies together, is a mistake.  He failed to support the Iranians who might have risen up to change their government, he supported the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, he took out admittedly despotic leaders who at least were keeping Islamists under control.  A part of that last was to facilitate the murder of Qaddafi and hand Lybia to the radicals.  Doing that only showed future governments in the Middle East that making a deal with us was risky. 
He ran guns to the Syrian rebels who were ISIS, and he abandoned the one good place for us to be, by leaving Iraq and turning much of that over the ISIS and Iran. 

There is not one thing he did with these countries that ended up being a + for the US or for the world.

Irans assets had been frozen and confiscated for a number of reasons over the years.  They were not only frozen by the US, but by the UN.  Obama made a deal that could not be verified or enforced.  He lied about when he started working toward the deal and with whom.  Kerry was involved in making the contacts much earlier than we knew and with hardliners.  Obama collected and sent cash to Iran in a way that was against the US laws which is why he sent foreign money, and it appeared to be ransome payment for hostages. Additionally, they calculated the interest on 400 million in the most favorable way to Iran.  Oh yeah, and then he tried to give Iran access to US banks so they could convert the money, but the banks refused. 

What has Iran been doing with the billions in cash?  Why was Obama on the side of radicals every time?



They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2018, 03:03:33 pm »
Sanctions against Iran have been in place in one form or another for decades and for multiple reasons.  The fact that our "allies" choose to support a state sponsor of terrorism and a wannabe nuke power run by nutters is more a problem for them than us.  If Iran goes rogue with nukes it will be the Europeans who get the worst of the result.

To look at Obamas Iran policies without looking at his middle east policies together, is a mistake.  He failed to support the Iranians who might have risen up to change their government, he supported the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, he took out admittedly despotic leaders who at least were keeping Islamists under control.  A part of that last was to facilitate the murder of Qaddafi and hand Lybia to the radicals.  Doing that only showed future governments in the Middle East that making a deal with us was risky. 
He ran guns to the Syrian rebels who were ISIS, and he abandoned the one good place for us to be, by leaving Iraq and
turning much of that over the ISIS and Iran. 

There is not one thing he did with these countries that ended up being a + for the US or for the world.

Irans assets had been frozen and confiscated for a number of reasons over the years.  They were not only frozen by the US, but by the UN.  Obama made a deal that could not be verified or enforced.  He lied about when he started working toward the deal and with whom.  Kerry was involved in making the contacts much earlier than we knew and with hardliners.  Obama collected and sent cash to Iran in a way that was against the US laws which is why he sent foreign money, and it appeared to be ransome payment for hostages. Additionally, they calculated the interest on 400 million in the most favorable way to Iran.  Oh yeah, and then he tried to give Iran access to US banks so they could convert the money, but the banks refused. 

What has Iran been doing with the billions in cash?  Why was Obama on the side of radicals every time?
Kathy
Who did the money belong to? Forget the $ GBP euro etc did it belong to Iran or not? Was the US government bring taken to the International court for it's return plus interest? How did it end up in the US if it's because oil is priced in $ should that now be changed? :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 03:13:38 pm by cidersabuzzin »
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Offline kathyp

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2018, 04:11:50 pm »
Quote
Kathy
Who did the money belong to? Forget the $ GBP euro etc did it belong to Iran or not? Was the US government bring taken to the International court for it's return plus interest? How did it end up in the US if it's because oil is priced in $ should that now be changed?

Do your homework before you ask the question.  The money came from various places under various circumstances and was held not just by the US. 

International court  :cheesy:
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2018, 06:05:47 pm »
Quote
Kathy
Who did the money belong to? Forget the $ GBP euro etc did it belong to Iran or not? Was the US government bring taken to the International court for it's return plus interest? How did it end up in the US if it's because oil is priced in $ should that now be changed?

Do your homework before you ask the question.  The money came from various places under various circumstances and was held not just by the US. 

International court  :cheesy:

International Arbitration Court :grin:
What happened to the  $400m plus accrued interest, paid by the Shah for the undelivered Fighter Jets?

Maybe this will help;
https://www.quora.com/Is-Donald-Trump-right-that-the-US-gave-Iran-150-billion-dollars
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Offline kathyp

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2018, 07:11:33 pm »
quora might not be your best source for facts  :wink:

That money was part of it.  There was also property, bank accounts, etc.  Some of that money was used to pay the judgments against Iran for terrorist acts.  Some was held in escrow because of the military hardware we did not give to the Islamists after they took over the country. 

None of that is as much the issue as how and why Obama decided to reward them with billions.  Their money or not, it was withheld for a reason.  Now they have it and they are not using it for their people.  They are doing exactly what we knew they would do, funding terrorism, wars, and weapons. 

So, if your argument is "it's their money" well, they have it now.  Happy?
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2018, 04:30:24 am »
quora might not be your best source for facts  :wink:

That money was part of it.  There was also property, bank accounts, etc.  Some of that money was used to pay the judgments against Iran for terrorist acts.  Some was held in escrow because of the military hardware we did not give to the Islamists after they took over the country. 

None of that is as much the issue as how and why Obama decided to reward them with billions.  Their money or not, it was withheld for a reason.  Now they have it and they are not using it for their people.  They are doing exactly what we knew they would do, funding terrorism, wars, and weapons. 

So, if your argument is "it's their money" well, they have it now.  Happy?

Whether I am happy or not is irrelevant :smile:

As is the smug "well they have it now. Happy" :rolleyes:

If you order and pay for a load of bee equipment from Store 'A' in Berlin but they won't deliver because of how you, they  believe, treat your bees! Not only that, they keep your money and smugly say "until you do as we say"
For the record, I detest the Iranian regime, as I do a 'holier than thou' attitude of some governments/people.  :smile:  :cheesy:
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2018, 04:37:11 am »
quora might not be your best source for facts  :wink:

That money was part of it.  There was also property, bank accounts, etc.  Some of that money was used to pay the judgments against Iran for terrorist acts.  Some was held in escrow because of the military hardware we did not give to the Islamists after they took over the country. 

None of that is as much the issue as how and why Obama decided to reward them with billions.  Their money or not, it was withheld for a reason.  Now they have it and they are not using it for their people.  They are doing exactly what we knew they would do, funding terrorism, wars, and weapons. 

So, if your argument is "it's their money" well, they have it now.  Happy?

Whether I am happy or not is irrelevant :smile:

As is the smug "well they have it now. Happy" :rolleyes:

If you order and pay for a load of bee equipment from Store 'A' in Berlin but they won't deliver because of how you, they  believe, treat your bees! Not only that, they keep your money and smugly say "until you do as we say"
For the record, I detest the Iranian regime, as I do a 'holier than thou' attitude of some governments/people.  :smile:  :cheesy:

not only not deliver, but putting up terms to sell your honey to them. maybe even put up demands on ho w to color your house or how to dress your children asf.

Offline kathyp

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2018, 12:47:35 pm »
So in spite of regime change in '79 we should have sold the weapons to Iran because that was the deal we made with the former government?  The new government that was holding our people hostage?

Makes perfect leftist sense to me.

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2018, 12:59:58 pm »
So in spite of regime change in '79 we should have sold the weapons to Iran because that was the deal we made with the former government?  The new government that was holding our people hostage?

Makes perfect leftist sense to me.
If you don't want to deliver the planes which I understand, you return the money which belonged to the Iranian people. Not hold onto it like a thief.
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Sanctions
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2018, 01:08:36 pm »
Quote: you return the money which belonged to the Iranian people. end quote.
Now that is funny, I don?t care who you are. 😄
A dictator owns all the money except what he allows the people to keep.
Jim







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