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Author Topic: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)  (Read 974 times)

Online Ben Framed

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2018, 12:04:21 am »
Freezing will kill the varroa, all stages.
Jim

Thanks Jim, I thought so. Freezing the frames will kill wax worms, varroa, and Small Hive Beetles as well?  What about steam set up for killing virus?  The reason I ask, I once watched a video where a fellow shot steam throughout the boxes of excess frames and combs and suggested that this would sterilize the equipment as well as melt the wax.  Do you know of this type process and the facts of the benefits thereof?

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2018, 12:12:35 am »
Freezing will kill the varroa, all stages.
Jim

Agreed.  And all crawling and flying things.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2018, 04:47:46 am »
Freezing will kill the varroa, all stages.
Jim

Thanks Jim, I thought so. Freezing the frames will kill wax worms, varroa, and Small Hive Beetles as well?  What about steam set up for killing virus?  The reason I ask, I once watched a video where a fellow shot steam throughout the boxes of excess frames and combs and suggested that this would sterilize the equipment as well as melt the wax.  Do you know of this type process and the facts of the benefits thereof?

it`s a common practice for melting comb to get at the wax. For killing of foulbrood-spores one has to get to higher temps and bottle things up to get higher pressure. I don`t know the exact temps and durations. My wax-melter can do this pressuring-up, but I never used it. The guys making our foundation out of our wax keep it simmering for another 3 hours or so before making the foundation out of it. I guess that is alright.
I don`t sterilize equipment or frames either. But i don`t live in an area with a foul-brood-problem, so.....

just shooting hot steam through combs without melitng them is just making them wet.

Online Acebird

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2018, 08:07:28 am »
The freezer pretty much kills every critter you can see which is why I left my wet supers outside all winter.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline robirot

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2018, 08:36:24 am »
Feed to weicht. If you keep feeding AS long as they take it, you can easly overfeed them until all cells are filled.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2018, 02:28:55 pm »
Curious:

How much vinegar would you add to about 4.5 gallons of syrup?
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2018, 03:10:35 pm »
2Sox;  If you are thinking vinegar to invert the sucrose syrup, the bees automatically do that as they place the syrup in the cells of the comb.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2018, 03:22:46 pm »
2Sox;  If you are thinking vinegar to invert the sucrose syrup, the bees automatically do that as they place the syrup in the cells of the comb.

Interesting.  It was my understanding that this would help bring the sugar close to the acid PH of honey; something bees could NOT do. And for this reason - and others - it is accepted that sugar really is not very good for bees, except as a last resort.  We know that commercial operators approach this very differently.

I'd be grateful if you could give me the source of this information that you give.  Thanks.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2018, 04:41:59 pm »
2Sox;  Google invertase in honey bees, look at the videos on youtube on feeding honey bees (the ones produced by known bee researchers, not those by first year beekeepers), read the ABC & XYZ of beekeeping and the Hive and the Honey Bee, and see if you can find USDA publications on the feeding of honey bees, or the publications by Doug Somerville, or Haydak, or Moeller, or Johansson.  Find Leslie Bailey or Brenda Ball and read their study on what food is best for wintering honey bees.

Be sure to keep your eyes open for anything that says sugar syrup must be inverted for feeding bees, or that the ph must be changed. 

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2018, 06:25:53 pm »
2Sox;  Google invertase in honey bees, look at the videos on youtube on feeding honey bees (the ones produced by known bee researchers, not those by first year beekeepers), read the ABC & XYZ of beekeeping and the Hive and the Honey Bee, and see if you can find USDA publications on the feeding of honey bees, or the publications by Doug Somerville, or Haydak, or Moeller, or Johansson.  Find Leslie Bailey or Brenda Ball and read their study on what food is best for wintering honey bees.

Be sure to keep your eyes open for anything that says sugar syrup must be inverted for feeding bees, or that the ph must be changed.

Thank you for these sources, AR.  I already began my research and this should help even more. My initial discovery has been that adding vinegar is actually harmful.  This increases the production of Hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF) in the sugar syrup.  High HMF equals high bee mortality, according to this article.  Makes me wonder adding vinegar, citric acid, lemon juice is so common.

https://honeybeesuite.com/hydroxymethylfurfural-in-sugar-syrup/

Do you have any information that corroborates this?

"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2018, 08:01:44 pm »
Mr. Sox, good evening Sir.  HMF to my knowledge is only created at temperatures above 234F, which happens to be the boiling point of sugar syrup.  HMF simply stated is burnt syrup.

Let me explain the process in simple English of sugar syrup and honey bees digestion.

First forgive me if I make this to simple, for all I know Mr. Sox, you could be a nuclear scientist and laugh at my explanation.  Second, if you are a nuclear scientist, excuse my attempt to learn a learnth.( is that a real word?)

If we had a large enough magnifying glass we would see sugar syrup as bits of water mixed with bits of sugar.  We would see the bits of sugar are much larger than the tiny bits of water.  In fact the sugar bits are so large they cannot pass into the honeybees bloodstream.  So honeybees must reduce these huge bits of sugar so they are small enough to enter the bees bloodstream.  The process is called inverting the sugar.  Inverting sugar, reduces the size of the single pieces sugar to a smaller size
so the sugar can enter the bloodstream.

The process was taught to me in detail using Latin, science language.  Using Latin is a means of complicating as much as possible the simplest issues which creates pleasure within professors trying as much as possible to stress students.  Humor emphasized.
Blessings

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2018, 08:06:18 pm »
Van,
Thanks for that detailed explanation.
Jim

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2018, 11:05:12 pm »
Mr. Sox, good evening Sir.  HMF to my knowledge is only created at temperatures above 234F, which happens to be the boiling point of sugar syrup.  HMF simply stated is burnt syrup.

Let me explain the process in simple English of sugar syrup and honey bees digestion.

First forgive me if I make this to simple, for all I know Mr. Sox, you could be a nuclear scientist and laugh at my explanation.  Second, if you are a nuclear scientist, excuse my attempt to learn a learnth.( is that a real word?)

If we had a large enough magnifying glass we would see sugar syrup as bits of water mixed with bits of sugar.  We would see the bits of sugar are much larger than the tiny bits of water.  In fact the sugar bits are so large they cannot pass into the honeybees bloodstream.  So honeybees must reduce these huge bits of sugar so they are small enough to enter the bees bloodstream.  The process is called inverting the sugar.  Inverting sugar, reduces the size of the single pieces sugar to a smaller size
so the sugar can enter the bloodstream.

The process was taught to me in detail using Latin, science language.  Using Latin is a means of complicating as much as possible the simplest issues which creates pleasure within professors trying as much as possible to stress students.  Humor emphasized.
Blessings

Van,
This is great!  And your simplification is extremely useful.  I thank you for taking the time to explain and for your good humor in doing so.  As a retired teacher of 30 years I always found the KISS rule to be the gold standard.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline robirot

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2018, 03:51:02 am »
No vinegar needed. Straight sugar in Walter is all you need.

Bringing the PH with some Acid close to nectar/honey won't hurt the bees, but if you boil it together with acid you start producing hmf.

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2018, 06:15:27 am »
2Sox;  When you search for information about honey bees you will need to remember that some findings reported are based on only one study.  It is best if you can find studies that have been repeated and the same conclusion reached.  Studies are only as good as the people that designed and carried out the study.

Information about the honey bee is changing rapidly as better test methods are put into use, so remember that what is chisled in stone today is proven to be incorrect tomorrow.  It is best to not put much faith in what you read on the net, wait until you have had a chance to try techniques for yourself before you really believe what the person recommending them has said.  All beekeeping is local, what applies here in north Arkansas may not apply in your area.

Be a hands-on beekeeper, you don't really learn about bees without working with the bees.  Don't worry about making mistakes, that is how you will learn your best lessons.  I have kept bees for over 40 years, and I still make mistakes.

Remember, stay skeptical about what you read on bee forums.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2018, 10:31:26 am »

  It is best to not put much faith in what you read on the net, wait until you have had a chance to try techniques for yourself before you really believe what the person recommending them has said.  All beekeeping is local, what applies here in north Arkansas may not apply in your area.

Be a hands-on beekeeper, you don't really learn about bees without working with the bees.  Don't worry about making mistakes, that is how you will learn your best lessons.  I have kept bees for over 40 years, and I still make mistakes.

Remember, stay skeptical about what you read on bee forums.

Very good advice to us all. Sounds like the advice I had often given to my students over the years, "Always be skeptical. Don't believe a thing I say or what you read until you find it true for yourself. Always, always question."

Reminds me of that great line of Groucho Marx: "Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes?"  Too much believing without questioning going on out there today, in my opinion.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline 2Sox

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2018, 10:33:20 am »
No vinegar needed. Straight sugar in Walter is all you need.

Bringing the PH with some Acid close to nectar/honey won't hurt the bees, but if you boil it together with acid you start producing hmf.

This distinction is important. This was NOT mentioned in the link I provided.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline Beepah

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2018, 07:18:10 am »
Won't consumption free-up space?
Thanks,
(first year beekeeper)

Offline robirot

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Re: When to stop feeding sugar syrup? (fall)
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2018, 07:25:41 am »
Won't consumption free-up space?
Thanks,
(first year beekeeper)
Yes, but consumption is slow.