Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Hey, Ace, no gun needed  (Read 2086 times)

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 5572
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2018, 02:01:40 pm »
Aiming must be involved if one expects to hit the target with effect.

Tell that to the service men that have died as a result of a German machine gun.  Ground wars are about who has the better equipment.  No one has matched our equipment since the second WW in a ground fight.  That is why our military wants to make everything a ground fight even when it doesn't exist.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2511
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2018, 07:33:02 pm »
You really believe those gunners were not aiming at individual soldirs running toward them?  They were not spray and pray shooters.  They were skilled, disciplined soldiers, just as ours were.  Our gunners killed their share of enemy troops.  The Red Army soldiers?  Not so much skilled as a lot of them, which is why their losses were very high, but they continued to advance against German troops.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 9513
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2018, 07:50:21 pm »
Ace, there was a story a few months ago where 3 cops all fired multiple rounds at a single subject. I'm not sure, but I'm thinking 39 rounds, like 20 to 30 feet away. All shots missed the subject.

So much for indiscriminate firing, even by professionally trained cops.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 5572
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2018, 08:37:22 am »
Not the same thing at all Wally.  You think the professional trained cops didn't aim?  Anyways if the 39 rounds came from one automatic gun I doubt if all the shots would have missed.
Dallas, explain what the purpose of a tracer bullet is?  And then explain what the purpose of a gun sight is?  Now which one was used more often on automatic weapons?
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Hops Brewster

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 584
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2018, 10:47:43 am »
Aiming must be involved if one expects to hit the target with effect.

Tell that to the service men that have died as a result of a German machine gun.  Ground wars are about who has the better equipment.  No one has matched our equipment since the second WW in a ground fight.  That is why our military wants to make everything a ground fight even when it doesn't exist.

Actually, the current method is Air Power and Sea Power.  Troops are thrown in only when needed, and to do those things that a missile can't.  Why risk the boots on the ground when an airstrike or missile can do the job in an instant?

Yes Ace, it's true.   The Germans had excellent machine guns in both World Wars. In WWI they used the Maxim gun.  An American, Maxim invented the first practical machine gun.  The US failed to adopt it, but the Germans and other Euro nations were quick to see its benefits and used it to great effect in WWI .  The US had to buy its MGs from France and Britain!  But by WWII we had the arguably best MGs in theatre.

Machine guns, German or otherwise, are still aimed.  It is usually not a constant spray of MG bullets, either.  Never has been.  Sure, there are notable exceptions, but in most cases, fully automatic fire is in short, repeated bursts.  You see, a constant spray is a sure way to quickly burn out the barrel, and when a MG barrel needs to be replaced it makes the BG crew vulnerable to attack.  Not only that, but spray and pray is a gross waste of ammunition, which is a critical factor in a pitched battle.  Aimed bursts are much more useful and effective.

Geez Ace, you continue to argue in ignorance a position which you cannot defend.  You know very little about firearms, yet continue to lecture those of us that do on their use/misuse.  ace, I pay attention to what you have to say about bees and I learn from you, but on this topic, not so much.
Winter is coming.

I can't say I hate the government, but I am proudly distrustful of them.

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 5572
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2018, 01:58:57 pm »

Machine guns, German or otherwise, are still aimed.  It is usually not a constant spray of MG bullets, either.  Never has been.  Sure, there are notable exceptions, but in most cases, fully automatic fire is in short, repeated bursts.  You see, a constant spray is a sure way to quickly burn out the barrel, and when a MG barrel needs to be replaced it makes the BG crew vulnerable to attack.  Not only that, but spray and pray is a gross waste of ammunition, which is a critical factor in a pitched battle.  Aimed bursts are much more useful and effective.


Contrary to what you might think I am aware of all this and you are missing the whole point.  The benefit and rapid adoption of the machine gun is not in the aiming of the gun it is in the rapid fire of the gun.  Hands down if we both had the same gun you would be better than I.  But if I had the gun and you didn't it would be to my advantage regardless of what I know.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2511
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2018, 02:17:58 pm »

Machine guns, German or otherwise, are still aimed.  It is usually not a constant spray of MG bullets, either.  Never has been.  Sure, there are notable exceptions, but in most cases, fully automatic fire is in short, repeated bursts.  You see, a constant spray is a sure way to quickly burn out the barrel, and when a MG barrel needs to be replaced it makes the BG crew vulnerable to attack.  Not only that, but spray and pray is a gross waste of ammunition, which is a critical factor in a pitched battle.  Aimed bursts are much more useful and effective.



As I recall from the stories,  a few well-placed AIMED bullets from a bolt action rifle let Sgt. Alvin York take out a machine gun nest in World War 1.  The number of rounds going downrange make no difference if they are not well aimed.

The open sights on machine guns are not fine instruments.  Tracers allow the gunner to adjust the placement of fire to compensate for the roughness of the sighting mechanism, adjusting for wind and elevation.
Contrary to what you might think I am aware of all this and you are missing the whole point.  The benefit and rapid adoption of the machine gun is not in the aiming of the gun it is in the rapid fire of the gun.  Hands down if we both had the same gun you would be better than I.  But if I had the gun and you didn't it would be to my advantage regardless of what I know.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Hops Brewster

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 584
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2018, 10:41:11 pm »

Machine guns, German or otherwise, are still aimed.  It is usually not a constant spray of MG bullets, either.  Never has been.  Sure, there are notable exceptions, but in most cases, fully automatic fire is in short, repeated bursts.  You see, a constant spray is a sure way to quickly burn out the barrel, and when a MG barrel needs to be replaced it makes the BG crew vulnerable to attack.  Not only that, but spray and pray is a gross waste of ammunition, which is a critical factor in a pitched battle.  Aimed bursts are much more useful and effective.


Contrary to what you might think I am aware of all this and you are missing the whole point.  The benefit and rapid adoption of the machine gun is not in the aiming of the gun it is in the rapid fire of the gun.  Hands down if we both had the same gun you would be better than I.  But if I had the gun and you didn't it would be to my advantage regardless of what I know.
Then why do you keep pulling out this "spraying into a crowd" and other kneejerk nonsense?  If you really do know about these things, the stop spouting ignorance and misinformation.  If you are as knowledgeable on the subject as you claim, bring out some facts, and stop spouting the leftist dogma of fear and disinformation.  I have not missed the point!  You have merely been making a sad attempt at obfuscation, and I call you on it.
Winter is coming.

I can't say I hate the government, but I am proudly distrustful of them.

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2511
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2018, 05:16:19 pm »
Hops, the point keeps moving, doesn't it?  Harder to get it pinned down when it moves and changes shape with each posting.  But that's okay.  The is not so much a debate as a game of blind man's bluff.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 9513
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2018, 09:42:58 pm »
If you're expecting a legible conversation from Ace, forget it. He is so spaced out in his thinking, he doesn't even know hisself what he's thinking.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*