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Author Topic: Hey, Ace, no gun needed  (Read 2084 times)

Offline iddee

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2018, 08:40:24 am »
Now imagine if this guy had an automatic weapon.  It could have been hundreds.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2018, 01:24:40 pm »
NO, it would still be just his family. He accomplished his mission, with the tools he had. That will always be the case. Just ask Timothy McVeigh.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2018, 04:09:10 pm »
Ask a dead man?
Reading just a small portion of what was recorded he was asked lots of questions and he wasn't shy about answering.  You picked someone that had thoughts of killing family members, friends, acquaintances and innocent people which is mostly what he killed.  He could of blown up an empty federal building if he wanted to make a statement against the government but he killed innocent people instead.
What is alarming to me is he used some of the same rhetoric that is common among gun enthusiast today.  How does the government differentiate the difference between an individual that just likes guns and nut job like this when they sing the same song?
And again it is another story where a decorated service man goes off the deep end.  Was he nuts before he joined?  If so then why take him?  If he wasn't nuts before then maybe they need to find out why so many kids come out nuts.
Wally I think even I could have come up with a better example to support your case then you did.  This one sure doesn't
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Offline iddee

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2018, 05:47:05 pm »
""Ask a dead man?""

Why not? It's no more ridiculous than some of your Trump posts.

The point is, when someone wants to kill, they are going to find a way. Whether it's one family member or a hundred strangers, they will use the easiest way they can. If a gun or guns are that way, that's what they will use. If no guns available for the job, they will find another way. Why you can't see something as simple as that is beyond me.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2018, 09:15:14 am »
Why you can't see something as simple as that is beyond me.

I can see it.  What I can't get you to see is with mass murderers there is a time factor.  So if a gun is capable of shooting at a high rate it is much more desirable to the perpetrator then a 6 inch blade to do what the whack job wants to do.  Plus the fact that there is more of a possibility for a group of people to defend themselves and subdue the perpetrator if all he has is a knife.
You also are not listening to me.  I am not in favor of banning guns.  I am in favor of banning certain people from having certain guns.  Wally you are going to lose your right to have a gun one of two ways.  It is either going to be by the whack job who ends up creating a dictatorship with NRA help or the opposition banning them instead of solving the problem in a by partisan way that makes sense and more effective.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2018, 03:22:07 pm »
The first part is correct, but what you won't admit is, if you take their guns, they will find a different way. Maybe fewer deaths with a knife, or more with explosives. Either way, they will find another way.The only sure prevention is to remove the nuts, not the guns.

NO, the only thing that will take my guns is my death.
The first is only your fantasy, and the second would be unsuccessful in my particular case.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline kathyp

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2018, 05:17:51 pm »
Quote
Now imagine if this guy had an automatic weapon.  It could have been hundreds.

Automatic weapons are already outlawed.  Problem solved.
Murder is already against the law.  Problem solved.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2018, 05:35:17 pm »
So is grabbing a woman's crotch!
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2018, 07:25:15 pm »
Ace,
If a mass murderer wants to kill a lot more people quick, he can make a bomb with household items. They can also use a vehicle to mow down hundreds of people in a very short time. I don?t here you or the media trying to ban vehicles.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2018, 08:02:50 am »
You don't hear me trying to ban guns either.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2018, 04:55:28 pm »
I've never seen the point of a semi auto.  I can fire just as many aimed rounds with most any other kind of gun including a single shot.  One of the gun writers of the 80's, Ross Seyfried told the story of lending his Ruger #1 single shot to his then girlfriend (later wife) and she came back from hunting coyotes to scold him for sending her with a single shot. She had called in five coyotes at once.  He asked if she got them, she said, "of course, but I broke a nail".  Berserkers throughout history have killed hundreds and thousands with things like swords and clubs and even the jawbone of an ass.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 05:34:20 pm by Michael Bush »
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2018, 05:39:19 pm »
Michael, that's probably true for sporting firearms use, but I think you'll admit the M1 Garand was a great improvement over the 03 in combat, particularly with green troops.  On the other hand, the M-16 was a huge ammo waster, especially when it was used full auto.  I knew some commanders who forbade their troops to move the selector switch for that reason. 

What the antigun crowd don't understand is that an assault rifle uses a relatively weak cartridge because the purpose of the weapon is to remove people from combat, not necessarily to kill them.  If you kill a soldier, he can just lie there.  If you wound him, the enemy has to use personnel to remove him from the battlefield and treat him.  Of course, that's the theory, but when your enemy has little regard for his wounded, the theory flies right out the window. 

I see videos of Arabs and such emptying their AK47s into the air to celebrate something or other and think they must have unlimited budgets for ammunition and no logistical problem getting ammo to their people.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2018, 05:50:28 pm »
Michael, I grew up hunting white winged doves in the Lower Rio Grande Valley.  I had a 20 gauge single shot shotgun, while the adults were carrying Browning over and unders and autoloaders.  I had to make every shot count, while they knew that always had another shot or two.  I usually had my limit while they were still shooting.  So, yeah, I have to agree with you about single shot firearms for sporting purposes.  It's like the kids who were given five .22 cartridges and had to bring home five rabbits or squirrels back in the old days.  Those were the kids who grew up to be the sharpshooters in WW1 and WW2, I guess.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2018, 11:24:01 am »
>I see videos of Arabs and such emptying their AK47s into the air to celebrate something or other and think they must have unlimited budgets for ammunition and no logistical problem getting ammo to their people.

or a total lack of foresight...

>I usually had my limit while they were still shooting.

Exactly.  I think it's totally erroneous to assume that a semi auto is in any way more deadly than a single shot or a bolt action or a revolver.  A revolver fires every time I pull the trigger.  I can fire six aimed shots from my bolt action just as fast as I can fire six aimed shots from a semi auto.  Now I can certainly fire indiscriminate unaimed shots faster with a semi auto but that does not make it more deadly by any means.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2018, 07:37:56 pm »
Now I can certainly fire indiscriminate unaimed shots faster with a semi auto but that does not make it more deadly by any means.

In a crowd of people it does because aiming is not involved.  For hunting game not so much.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2018, 08:17:56 am »
>In a crowd of people it does because aiming is not involved.  For hunting game not so much.

Many a hunter has fired into a flock of geese and thought they couldn't miss.  But they almost always do.  Very seldom do unaimed shots hit anything even when missing looks unlikely to the shooter.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2018, 09:09:02 am »
People standing shoulder to shoulder at a concert are not geese.  School kids trapped in a class room or auditorium are not geese.  Furthermore in a panic situation they are inclined to pack closer together trying to escape through a door.  Your experience for hunting counts for nothing in mass murder situations.  It's apples and oranges.
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Offline paus

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2018, 10:37:48 am »
But it does if you are one of those who can protect those sitting ducks.  Two of us have killed eight wild hogs with ten shot  semi autos and never take the gun from our shoulder. we both had rounds left.  Several times I have killed multiple hogs and squirrels many times with a semi or pump.   Aiming becomes instinctive with practice.  For years I was a Texas certified Safe Hunter instructor, we try to get as much range time in as possible to make safe handling a natural but as in driving it is an instinctive action but you must  never quit thinking. 

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Hey, Ace, no gun needed
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2018, 11:09:36 am »
Now I can certainly fire indiscriminate unaimed shots faster with a semi auto but that does not make it more deadly by any means.

In a crowd of people it does because aiming is not involved.  For hunting game not so much.
Here is a clear example of firearm and hunting ignorance.  A crowd is a crowd, whether geese, buffalo or people.   Apples and apples.
Aiming must be involved if one expects to hit the target with effect.  When shots are fired a crowd will naturally scatter in all directions before the instinct or thought process to flee in one general direction of perceived safety kicks in.   Geese, ducks, buffalo and people all react in a similar manner when the crowd is threatened.  At first, there is a general confusion and milieu.  It takes time to gather into the 'flock' or 'herd' mentality and flee as a crowd.  Even then, there is much more space between objects than you would imagine. 

In order to be successful a predator must focus on one single target.  The same holds true for a 2 legged predator.  A goose hunter or an old-time buffalo hunter must pick out a specific target and fire for effect at a critical body point.  Anything else is ineffective and risks merely wounding.  Merely blasting away at a mass will give poor results.  Most shots would miss anything at all.  The few that hit are much less likely to hit vulnerable central nervous system points.  The reason people die in mass shootings is because the shots are aimed at critical body points. 

If it were all 'spray and pray' as you suggest, the death rate would be much lower and the survivable wound rate much higher.  In most mass shootings, the victims were not all gathered at an exit, but they were scattered through out the target area.  Aimed shooting.  The last time I went goose hunting I fired 4 shotgun rounds.  I killed 3 geese.  (I keep 1 round between the fingers of my off hand for a quick follow-up load) Aimed shooting.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 11:28:27 am by Hops Brewster »
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