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Author Topic: Legal advice  (Read 3355 times)

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2018, 10:43:04 am »
but those guys didn't give up their lives of crime as a result.
Nor are they worried about a farmer with a pistol.  I am certain if they wanted to they could take out Hops in a heartbeat.
So, I know a few farmers.  Virtually all of them take time to practice with their firearms.  so do I.  I reload my own ammunition, so I have plenty to practice with.

Shooting is a perishable skill.  so while I and my farming friends are free to practice at will, your jail-birds that won't give up their lives of crime are sitting in prison practicing their metal stamping skills and making shanks.

Who do you think is most likely to win a gunfight; a well practiced farmer, completely and intimately familiar with his own weapon, or the recently paroled jailbird with a stolen handgun, with which he is only vaguely familiar and, if he's lucky, has fired only a dozen rounds through?

 Or, who would win between the suburbanite beekeeper who has only limited knowledge of firearms, is paranoid of handguns, and refuses to arm himself and referenced armed jail bird?
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2018, 08:22:35 pm »
Who do you think is most likely to win a gunfight;
Ah, you see that is where you might lose your life hops.  It is not a gun fight.  It is incarceration with other harden criminals where they learn from each others mistakes.  They have all the time in the world to do so and their punishment if they get caught is no different then what they have already experienced so they have nothing to lose.  I am not sure you are differentiating the difference between a harden criminal and a nut job that goes off and kills a bunch of people.  With a nut job we are both at risk but with a harden criminal you are at risk because you might get in their way and you assume you would win a gun fight even though it might not be with guns.
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2018, 09:06:41 am »
> It was this way 200 years before the NRA.

The constitution was approved in 1788 and the bill of rights was approved in 1791.  The NRA was established in 1871, 80 years before the NRA the 2nd amendment was passed.  Also 80 years before the NRA the 10th amendment was passed which reserved to the states and the individuals anything not specified as the jurisdiction of the federal government in the constitution.  No where near 200 years.
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2018, 10:47:55 am »
Who do you think is most likely to win a gunfight;
Ah, you see that is where you might lose your life hops.  It is not a gun fight.  It is incarceration with other harden criminals where they learn from each others mistakes.  They have all the time in the world to do so and their punishment if they get caught is no different then what they have already experienced so they have nothing to lose.  I am not sure you are differentiating the difference between a harden criminal and a nut job that goes off and kills a bunch of people.  With a nut job we are both at risk but with a harden criminal you are at risk because you might get in their way and you assume you would win a gun fight even though it might not be with guns.

Huh? What?
So you say there is nothing I can do to protect myself, just because they might be a nutjob or hardened criminal? You say I might as well not try to protect myself? That's where you lose.
You assume that hanging out in prison is better training than intentional, focused training with live ammo.  You assume that I know nothing of fighting.  You assume that them having nothing to lose is more powerful than me fighting to protect what I have.  You assume too much.

Ace, you are moving from a gun-paranoid Northeastern enclave to a Southern environment where there is a much more liberal (ironically!) attitude toward personal firearms.  You would have been better off shipping those guns you found to yourself in Florida and begun the change of attitude to thought over emotion.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2018, 01:56:28 pm »
> It was this way 200 years before the NRA.

It makes it difficult to find posts when you don't use quotes especially when a thread gets a few pages long.
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Offline jvalentour

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2018, 05:56:39 pm »
Ace,
I skipped to page 4, didn't read the entire thread so this may have been suggested.
If you take the gun apart, like remove the slide or cylinder, it is not a gun, just a couple of pieces of metal.
Put one section in the trunk and another in your cab and you are legal.  More legal is you skip the ammo.
Enjoy your travels.

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2018, 06:22:57 pm »
Ace,
I skipped to page 4, didn't read the entire thread so this may have been suggested.
If you take the gun apart, like remove the slide or cylinder, it is not a gun, just a couple of pieces of metal.
Put one section in the trunk and another in your cab and you are legal.  More legal is you skip the ammo.
Enjoy your travels.


You are not considering the troopers in New Jersey, who have been known to treat ancient muzzle-loading pistols as if they were assault weapons, and those possessing them as gun-runners.

I think the law views the receiver (frame/part with the serial number on it) as the firearm.  You can ship a cylinder, slide, barrel, stock or whatever with no problem, but when you ship a receiver you have to comply with strict rules.  Strip everything, including springs and screw off the receiver and it's still the receiver, which means the firearm.

This is something I don't understand about these 3-D printed firearms.  When they print a receiver without a serial number, they are manufacturing a firearm without a license and it is probably illegal.  Any other part for a firearm that they create is perfectly legal. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 06:39:58 pm by Dallasbeek »
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2018, 06:35:06 pm »
On further reflection, the law allows a person to make a firearm, with or without a serial number, for his or her personal use only, and not for sale or as a gift, without a license, so I guess that part of my previous post was all wet.  Ignore it.  I was unable to modify that post to remove the dumb paragraph.  Sorry.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2018, 07:47:01 pm »
Dallas,
You can buy a receiver that is no more than 80% complete and it is not considered a firearm. As you mentioned other parts of the gun are not a problem.
Jim

Offline jvalentour

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #69 on: September 10, 2018, 09:14:48 pm »
You are not considering the troopers in New Jersey, who have been known to treat ancient muzzle-loading pistols as if they were assault weapons, and those possessing them as gun-runners.


In that case the troopers were scanning license plates looking for CCW holders from out of state.  I think Ace is not a CCW holder.  But you are correct in that some agencies have a strange view of what is a firearm. 

I was not suggesting Ace ship the handgun.  He implied he wanted to travel with it and use it for varmits when he camped.  In most parts of the US, if the gun is disassembled, and is divided into areas or sections of your car, it is not a gun.  The reasoning is you would have to assemble it to use it.  The parts alone do not make it a gun. 

The receiver, or part with the serial number, when shipped, as far as I know must go to a FFL.  I do know of one exception first hand.  I shipped an entire handgun back to the manufacturer and it was returned after repair directly to me.  The manufacturer stated this exchange is permitted by law. 

If I were Ace I would not travel with an assembled hand gun until I knew which states are reciprocal and which are not.  I'd drive anywhere with half a gun in the glove compartment and the other half in the trunk. 

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #70 on: September 10, 2018, 09:34:32 pm »
A lot of good all this does Brian now, but an ATF Q&A says you can send a firearm to yourself in another state by sending it addressed to yourself, in care of another person, so long as the other person does not open the package or "take possession of" the firearm.  Hunters do it all the time, according to the website.  But Brian already said goodbye to those guns.  Just everybody else remember if it comes up again.  Still, it wouldn't hurt to check at that time, since ATF has been known to change its policies from time to time, like on bump stocks.  First they have to test which way the wind is blowing, then they made a decision,  then if nobody howls too loud, that's their policy.

Jvalentour, a gun owner can ship to a FFL holder.

I don't think Brian has as CHL, so reciprocity doesdn't enter into it.  I do have a CHL, and I do check reciprocity, but the rules for carrying vary so much from state to state that I am extra careful when in another state.  Some places, you can't carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol, while in Texas you can unless 51% of the revenue of the restaurant is from alcohol, and that can change almost monthly for some places.  Best to avoid the issue.  I hate seeing a sign with 51 on it after going in a place and having to turn around and lock a gun in the trunk, thus telling thieves where to find a gun.  So I lock it away well before arriving at a restaurant or just leave it at home.  If you're going to be drinking at all, it's best to leave it at home to start with, imho.
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Offline jvalentour

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #71 on: September 10, 2018, 09:41:58 pm »
Thanks Dallasbeek.
I did not know I could mail to myself legally to another state.
I think we are both on the same page here.

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #72 on: September 10, 2018, 10:03:53 pm »
Thanks Dallasbeek.
I did not know I could mail to myself legally to another state.
I think we are both on the same page here.

Not mail.  Ship. Ship by common carrier like FedEx or UPS.  Sending or attempting to send by United States Postal Service is a big no-no.

"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2018, 08:52:04 am »
I'd drive anywhere with half a gun in the glove compartment and the other half in the trunk.

That would have been nice to know (if it is true) before we gave it to the cop.
Dallas, I don't know what a CHL is.
The problem was time and circumstances for shipping.  In order to ship I would have had to take possession of the gun.  The value of the gun might have been close to 4 figures.  Forget the stupid TV show, NYS law for self storage can get complicated when a person dies and there is value in the bin.  You can't just rob the estate of thousands of dollars.  There is red tape involved.  And that takes a lot of time.
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Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #74 on: September 11, 2018, 10:53:05 am »
Ace,
I skipped to page 4, didn't read the entire thread so this may have been suggested.
If you take the gun apart, like remove the slide or cylinder, it is not a gun, just a couple of pieces of metal.
Put one section in the trunk and another in your cab and you are legal.  More legal is you skip the ammo.
Enjoy your travels.


You are not considering the troopers in New Jersey, who have been known to treat ancient muzzle-loading pistols as if they were assault weapons, and those possessing them as gun-runners.

I think the law views the receiver (frame/part with the serial number on it) as the firearm.  You can ship a cylinder, slide, barrel, stock or whatever with no problem, but when you ship a receiver you have to comply with strict rules.  Strip everything, including springs and screw off the receiver and it's still the receiver, which means the firearm.

This is something I don't understand about these 3-D printed firearms.  When they print a receiver without a serial number, they are manufacturing a firearm without a license and it is probably illegal.  Any other part for a firearm that they create is perfectly legal.
Actually, under Federal law and in most states it is legal to manufacture your own firearm, but it MUST have a serial number and location of manufacture on the receiver.  Use it without required markings, it is big crime. 
Also, a gun must be made with enough metal to set off a metal detector.  No all-plastic guns are allowed.  BTW a spring and firing pin heavy enough to actuate the primer is usually enough metal to be detected.

The 3D printed guns are actually only functional models, not intended to be fired.  If they do get fired, it will likely be only once.  They are not strong enough to withstand the considerable pressures a gun is subject.  There are other plastic and/or metallic gun models on the market.  User buys a kit, assembles it and presto, a mechanical duplicate of the real thing.  Only difference, the model will blow up in you hand if you try to fire it.  #D printe model is just as dangerous if one were stupid enough to try shooting it.

This whole issue is nothing but paranoid whining.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2018, 01:18:34 pm »

Dallas, I don't know what a CHL is.
The problem was time and circumstances for shipping.  In order to ship I would have had to take possession of the gun.  The value of the gun might have been close to 4 figures.  Forget the stupid TV show, NYS law for self storage can get complicated when a person dies and there is value in the bin.  You can't just rob the estate of thousands of dollars.  There is red tape involved.  And that takes a lot of time.

CHL is concealed handgun license.  I guess now it's LTC (license to carry) since our legislature passed a law allowing open carry.  Every state seems to have a different name for it.  I see CCW, whatever that stands for, but probably about the sale as CHL, LTC or whatever.

Like I said, this whole thread means nothing to you now, since you turned the gun over to the police, but it seems to have stirred a lot of interest, so....
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Legal advice
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2018, 01:31:17 pm »
Hops, could you find a citation for a law requiring a serial number on every firearm?  I was looking at an ATF website and it said if the weapon was made for your personal use, no SN was required.  If you are making it for sale or anyone else, it has to have a SN and you need a manufactrer's license.

Some new consumer-grade printers are coming out that print in metal.  There are some high end printers that do that now, and they are used to make automotive parts that can take heavy use. 

An all-plastic gun that would get through metal detectors would still intimidate the heck out of me unless it was very obviously plastic.  Even then, I'd probably hesitate to resist. 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944