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Online iddee

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A Little Judicial History
« on: July 27, 2018, 10:18:39 pm »
 A Little Judicial History

In March of 1993, The United States Supreme Court issued a ruling in Reno v
Flores. (Yes, ?That? Reno. Democrat Janet Reno, Bill Clinton?s first Attorney General
who ordered that young Elian Gonzalez be torn from his family?s arms while
hiding in a Miami closet. You might remember the iconic photograph.)


The Court in Flores decided that minors could not be incarcerated with the
adults accompanying them across the United States border illegally. The
decision was the result of a long dispute in how to best care for these
children while the adults were detained for criminal proceedings.


You see, when aliens cross the border illegally, they are incarcerated until
their criminal case is decided.. The understandable argument at the time was
?why should children be incarcerated while their parents are in jail?? It
seemed a fundamental violation of international human rights. Makes sense,
right?


As a result, The Flores case drew a line in the sand. Children could not be
incarcerated with their parents or accompanying adult while being held for
illegal immigration violations. And a subsequent 1997 agreement stipulated
that children must be placed in a safer environment where they could enjoy
certain privileges, including education, a clean, safe environment and other
normal life cycle amenities that incarcerated individuals do not enjoy.

It was considered a ?victory? for human rights. By separating adult and
child, we protected the children, reducing any harm done to them for their
parent?s or accompanying adult?s decisions.


A lot has happened since then. However; bottom line, these juvenile,
shelters have been operating in accordance with the law, and overseen by the
Department of Health and Human Services to protect those children from the
hazards of parental incarceration since 1997.

So, since Donald Trump was running his real estate empire, selling wine and
casinos in 1993, we are left to determine just how he managed to orchestrate
this cruel ?separation of immigrant parent and child? 25 years BEFORE he was
President of the United States. The obvious answer is, he didn?t. He had
nothing to do with establishing this United States immigration policy.
Today, he simply enforces it.


This one story illustrates how important it is for us to do our research
regarding today?s headlines. The Corporate Media either refuses to do the
research, is incapable of doing the research or has done the research and
decided to lie to you about its findings. Either way, this would make the
Corporate Media lazy, incompetent or just plain deceptive. Liars, if you
will.?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 10:39:57 pm »
Good info Wally. Thanks.
Jim

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2018, 10:56:30 pm »
So it follows that if the child cannot be incarcerated with the adult, but the child cannot be separated from the adult, therefore the adult may not be incarcerated pending adjudication.  That's the result desired by the liberal politicians, social workers and media.  So, the immigrants being anything but stupid, each adult attaches himself to a child and insulates himself from incarceration.  Is that one of the lessons we learn from this fiasco?  They don't have to be a parent.  Just an "accompanying adult."
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2018, 04:38:03 am »
A Little Judicial History

In March of 1993, The United States Supreme Court issued a ruling in Reno v
Flores. (Yes, ?That? Reno. Democrat Janet Reno, Bill Clinton?s first Attorney General
who ordered that young Elian Gonzalez be torn from his family?s arms while
hiding in a Miami closet. You might remember the iconic photograph.)


The Court in Flores decided that minors could not be incarcerated with the
adults accompanying them across the United States border illegally. The
decision was the result of a long dispute in how to best care for these
children while the adults were detained for criminal proceedings.


You see, when aliens cross the border illegally, they are incarcerated until
their criminal case is decided.. The understandable argument at the time was
?why should children be incarcerated while their parents are in jail?? It
seemed a fundamental violation of international human rights. Makes sense,
right?


As a result, The Flores case drew a line in the sand. Children could not be
incarcerated with their parents or accompanying adult while being held for
illegal immigration violations. And a subsequent 1997 agreement stipulated
that children must be placed in a safer environment where they could enjoy
certain privileges, including education, a clean, safe environment and other
normal life cycle amenities that incarcerated individuals do not enjoy.

It was considered a ?victory? for human rights. By separating adult and
child, we protected the children, reducing any harm done to them for their
parent?s or accompanying adult?s decisions.


A lot has happened since then. However; bottom line, these juvenile,
shelters have been operating in accordance with the law, and overseen by the
Department of Health and Human Services to protect those children from the
hazards of parental incarceration since 1997.

So, since Donald Trump was running his real estate empire, selling wine and
casinos in 1993, we are left to determine just how he managed to orchestrate
this cruel ?separation of immigrant parent and child? 25 years BEFORE he was
President of the United States. The obvious answer is, he didn?t. He had
nothing to do with establishing this United States immigration policy.
Today, he simply enforces it.


This one story illustrates how important it is for us to do our research
regarding today?s headlines. The Corporate Media either refuses to do the
research, is incapable of doing the research or has done the research and
decided to lie to you about its findings. Either way, this would make the
Corporate Media lazy, incompetent or just plain deceptive. Liars, if you
will.?
Where did you get your info Wally? (not saying I disbelieve you) did it suddenly 'pop into your head' or have you been drip fed it? Email is a great resource, isn't it! A bit late to try and justify putting children into cages.........irrespective of what has happened before, and of course it happens to be by your political nemesis.
Keep batting iddee, but don't be a wally :rolleyes:
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Online iddee

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2018, 05:54:31 am »
Cider, I happen to be old enough to remember the incident. It was all over the news.

As for the cages, all that was oduring the prior admin. No cages have been used during the present admin's time.

Keep dreaming, Cider, maybe one will come true one day, but it's doubtful.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2018, 09:20:33 am »
Cider, I happen to be old enough to remember the incident. It was all over the news.

As for the cages, all that was during the prior admin. No cages have been used during the present admin's time.????

Keep dreaming, Cider, maybe one will come true one day, but it's doubtful.
I know I know wally! I keep having these dreams but he's still there! With his ridiculous ginger combover, pouting lips and waving his little hands as he beats the keyboard. Looks like I'll have to wait for the American people to wake up from their collective nightmare. :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:     
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Online kathyp

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2018, 12:29:48 pm »
Cider you might be interested in this.  Would you put up with this in your country?
Border Patrol estimates that at best, they catch 50% of those crossing illegally.  These numbers do not include those who come in, or stay in illegally in other ways. 
We suffer an invasion that has been going on for many decades but is now made worse by the invaders knowing that they get taken care of when they get here.

When I was a kind on the border in farmland, a lot of people came up illegally but worked really hard and took/sent their money home.  They received no food stamps, no free education, no free health care, etc.  they knew the deal when they came up to work. 
Now they come for a better form of socialism since the socialism they voted for themselves didn't work out at home.  These are not the "immigrants" of my childhood if only because they are a drain on the safety net system. 
And when Trump talked about criminals and rapists, he was not wrong.  Criminals DO come up here to avoid law enforcement in the south.  We are far more kind.


https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2018, 05:42:27 pm »
Iddee, Wallace, this is a great post, factual and informative.  Thanks, Buddy.  Yes, I remember Reno, how could one forget.

As far as the media goes, to me, my opinion, the media is one of America?s biggest threats.  The media readily promotes racism, causing death in the streets.  I quit listening to the news years ago.  I learn news from web sources that are more factual.

Wallace, your post are most appreciated and I think you for taking your time to enlighten me, to teach me, to increase my knowledge: Proverbs state FOOLS HATE KNOWLEDGE.
Blessing

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2018, 03:04:13 pm »
Iddee, Wallace, this is a great post, factual and informative.  Thanks, Buddy.  Yes, I remember Reno, how could one forget.

As far as the media goes, to me, my opinion, the media is one of America?s biggest threats.  The media readily promotes racism, causing death in the streets.  I quit listening to the news years ago. I learn news from web sources that are more factual.

Wallace, your post are most appreciated and I think you for taking your time to enlighten me, to teach me, to increase my knowledge: Proverbs state FOOLS HATE KNOWLEDGE.
Blessing

Presumably the likes of   https://libertynewsnow.com/    really factual stuff! :rolleyes:
[/b][/u]
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Online cidersabuzzin

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2018, 05:01:35 pm »
Cider you might be interested in this.  Would you put up with this in your country?
Border Patrol estimates that at best, they catch 50% of those crossing illegally.  These numbers do not include those who come in, or stay in illegally in other ways. 
We suffer an invasion that has been going on for many decades but is now made worse by the invaders knowing that they get taken care of when they get here.

When I was a kind on the border in farmland, a lot of people came up illegally but worked really hard and took/sent their money home.  They received no food stamps, no free education, no free health care, etc.  they knew the deal when they came up to work. 
Now they come for a better form of socialism since the socialism they voted for themselves didn't work out at home.  These are not the "immigrants" of my childhood if only because they are a drain on the safety net system. 
And when Trump talked about criminals and rapists, he was not wrong.  Criminals DO come up here to avoid law enforcement in the south.  We are far more kind.


https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
Kathy
When you have a land border with a poorer country that also have land borders with other poor countries you will always have illegal immigrants, how would you cope if you had uncontrolled legal immigration as we have? Thiss is why we are going through Brexit. You need to make illegal imigration deeply unattractive to the illegals and the employers maybe a mandatory automatic jail sentance,. Think of all the people that could be put to work on the farms for free! Although I doubt people having domestic help would agree.  :smile:
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Online iddee

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2018, 05:08:33 pm »
That's one good site, Cider. Here's another    https://100percentfedup.com/

Here's another   http://patriotupdate.com/homepage/patriot-update-daily-am/

 :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2018, 05:49:29 pm »
You have an excellent point, Cider.  But how do we (and you Brits) make illegal immigration unattractive to the migrants when we have rules in place that provide all kinds of free stuff for migrants and a very vocal group demanding not only that we allow the migrants to remain, but that they be provided even more free stuff? 

I have traveled a little in Europe in the past few years and it's amazing how the migrants have taken over the plazas and walkways in tourist areas to sell garbage like knockoff purses, to the point that it's difficult to walk through these public spaces without triping over their blankets covered with crap.  Until Europe gets some control over its hordes of migrants, I'll stay home.  What we Americans want is some control over immigration so that we don't have the kind of problems Europe is experiencing.  The migrants have turned Europe's beautiful tourist atractions into third world bazaars.  Except for changing planes at Gatwick, I haven't been in the UK since 2007, so I have no idea what's happening in your country.

You're correct that employers here must begin to suffer some consequences for hiring illegals.  Still, those people are here and deporting them all is impossible.  Trying to provide just the basic necessities for them can bankrupt our nation. We should have addressed the immigration problem 50 years ago.  We need immigrants.  We need labor.  We need young people to revitalize our society.  But we need a controlled, steady flow of law-abiding immigrants who have the education and skills to provide for themselves and their families.  Having a flood of people crossing our borders, as Europe has had in the past few years, can only lead to disaster. 

Much of the blame falls on our politicians who have kept the level of legal immigration so low that it has failed to keep up with our employers' need for labor, both skilled and unskilled.  I can understand why employers, whether agricultural or in industries like construction or meat-processing, are tempted to violate labor laws by hiring questionable applicants for jobs that will remain unfilled if they follow the law. 

We have some major problems to face.  If only we could do a brexit act, it would be easier, but we don't have a 20+ mile channel to slow the flood of people wanting to get into our country.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2018, 06:09:33 pm »
I see that I failed to address Cider's point about putting all these people to work on farms as free labor.  Our courts long ago ruled that prisoners can't be forced to work.  The cost of incarcerating the illegal immigrants and the "criminal" employers would be astronomical. Each employer would be entitled to a trial by jury.  We'd have to feed them, clothe them, provide medical care of all kinds for them, house them in a nice, comfortable place with heat and air conditioning, provide cable television for them, and somehow survive without the necessary services they provided as employers.  The immigrants would have the benefit of all those "rights" plus receive taxpayer-funded legal counsel, translators, etc. 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Online cidersabuzzin

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2018, 06:24:49 pm »
That's one good site, Cider. Here's another    https://100percentfedup.com/

Here's another   http://patriotupdate.com/homepage/patriot-update-daily-am/

 :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I must apologise iddee, not via email more by the toilet paper rags you linked! :wink:
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Online iddee

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2018, 06:41:24 pm »
With the sh*t sites like nbc, cbs, cnn, and msnbc, there has to be some toilet paper sites to wipe up after them.   :shocked: :cheesy: :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Online cidersabuzzin

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2018, 06:51:47 pm »
You have an excellent point, Cider.  But how do we (and you Brits) make illegal immigration unattractive to the migrants when we have rules in place that provide all kinds of free stuff for migrants and a very vocal group demanding not only that we allow the migrants to remain, but that they be provided even more free stuff? 

I have traveled a little in Europe in the past few years and it's amazing how the migrants have taken over the plazas and walkways in tourist areas to sell garbage like knockoff purses, to the point that it's difficult to walk through these public spaces without triping over their blankets covered with crap.  Until Europe gets some control over its hordes of migrants, I'll stay home.  What we Americans want is some control over immigration so that we don't have the kind of problems Europe is experiencing.  The migrants have turned Europe's beautiful tourist atractions into third world bazaars.  Except for changing planes at Gatwick, I haven't been in the UK since 2007, so I have no idea what's happening in your country.

You're correct that employers here must begin to suffer some consequences for hiring illegals.  Still, those people are here and deporting them all is impossible.  Trying to provide just the basic necessities for them can bankrupt our nation. We should have addressed the immigration problem 50 years ago.  We need immigrants.  We need labor.  We need young people to revitalize our society.  But we need a controlled, steady flow of law-abiding immigrants who have the education and skills to provide for themselves and their families.  Having a flood of people crossing our borders, as Europe has had in the past few years, can only lead to disaster. 

Much of the blame falls on our politicians who have kept the level of legal immigration so low that it has failed to keep up with our employers' need for labor, both skilled and unskilled.  I can understand why employers, whether agricultural or in industries like construction or meat-processing, are tempted to violate labor laws by hiring questionable applicants for jobs that will remain unfilled if they follow the law. 

We have some major problems to face.  If only we could do a brexit act, it would be easier, but we don't have a 20+ mile channel to slow the flood of people wanting to get into our country.

The UK suffers more from unrestricted immigration from within the EU, the rest of the EU are inundated with people from war torn countries mostly started by US/UK and allies and sub saharan countries (your Mexico and South America) as you say at least we have a channel but they still manage to get here! What do you think a little fence/wall will do? Make Mexico an island dig a 20 mile wide moat! :cool: :cool: :cool: What is needed is a juicy carrot for the ones you want and a very big stick for the ones you don't. :wink:

PS Don't be put off coming to the UK, the best contry in the world. :wink: friendly diverse people, beautiful countryside/cities wonderful history, great beer! albeit you may think a bit warm! So come for a visit. Its the same as why I visit the US..... but better :wink: 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 07:23:25 pm by cidersabuzzin »
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Online kathyp

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Re: A Little Judicial History
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2018, 08:21:36 pm »
Quote
You need to make illegal imigration deeply unattractive to the illegals and the employers maybe a mandatory automatic jail sentance,. Think of all the people that could be put to work on the farms for free! Although I doubt people having domestic help would agree. 

In some ways you have more of a mess to deal with than we do.  Not only the EU immigration issue, but your former colonies and those lax rules on immigration...Except for us.  We don't get to wander in, but we did kinda piss you guys off once upon a time   :cheesy:

How does that work with the "refugees" that are coming into the EU?  Can they move from country to country after they get into, say, Germany?

We have tried to do things to make coming here unattractive, but we every time we do something the sympathetic leftist courts block it.  The last admin was deporting families they caught but taking the males 100s of miles away to drop them over the border and putting the kids and women over where they caught them.  I guess the idea was that they would spend time and resources trying to find each other instead of coming back here. 
This admin tried 100% enforcement of the law which required kids not be held in detention with adults, and the courts blocked the separation.  That meant you couldn't detain the adults. 
Our laws suck and Congress won't fix them.  Obama waved a wand and changed asylum policy so basically anyone who shows up, even illegally and claims asylum will end up getting it.

The left claims these policies are kind because people are coming from poor countries and we have a lot.  How kind is it to encourage people to make a dangerous trip that risks death, rape, etc.?  How kind is it to the legal immigrant community that must compete with the illegals?  How kind is it to the people who spent time and money to come here legally and must watch people just wander in with no cost or consequences? 

Walls are only part of the answer.  We know that where there are existing walls there are fewer illegals crossing.  Walls can't keep everyone out, but they can help funnel people to places that are either much harder to cross, or easier for BP to catch them. 
As for making it less attractive, until Congress gets off its backside and fixes the laws there's not much we can do except vote.

Here are some stats from Border Patrol and they figure that at best, they catch 50%.  don't know if I have posted this before.  Apologies if I have. 

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville