Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example  (Read 940 times)

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« on: May 05, 2018, 06:20:36 am »
Sometime ago it was argued elsewhere for the use of fishing line
in lieu of steel (any). I was skeptical but not persuaded either way
as fishing line isn't plastic, right?
So, like I often say, these things are easily tested in your own yard,
and saves a lot of typing!
Right now is our "Spring Clean" time as we go around and count
losses and damage from The Wet. So it is this week I finished the
rounds of my yard (s) sorting stuff back into manageable mode for
the coming 'season'.
I attach (hopefully) the images of two frames taken from differing
colonys and put to different usage.
The fishing line 'experiment'?
Well, it speaks for itself in my book, plastic is plastic regardless of form.
The other frame is like a control for the other, albeit in a broodchamber.
An old frame (30+yrs) it too exhibits the bees grip on Plastic.
The wiring in that frame is stainless steel leader wire from my mackeral
fishing kit.

I will not be running fishing line again but am going to try braid.
More when that evidence rolls in.
Enjoy.

Bill









Online Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3513
  • North Mississippi
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2018, 08:56:04 am »
I have not tried fishing line either. How many frames did you experiment with, using the fishing line? All with the same results as the one in the picture?

Offline cao

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1300
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2018, 10:36:07 am »
That has been my experience with fishing line also.  I thought that it would save time and be easier to use fishing line rather that steel wire.  But the bees seem to avoid attaching comb to the fishing line unless they absolutely have to.

Offline little john

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1483
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2018, 11:01:28 am »
[...] bees seem to avoid attaching comb to the fishing line unless they absolutely have to.

I think that's the key to it's use.   It appears there's been a huge misunderstanding here - I don't remember anyone ever suggesting that nylon fishing line be used instead of wire when installing foundation - but rather only when running foundationless comb. 

The difference being - that with foundationless, the fishing-line lies in the plane of the future mid-rib - and so the bees are obliged to incorporate it, or begin to draw comb 'off-centre'.

When using f/line with foundation - the line is already outside of the plane of the mid-rib, and so they duly avoid incorporating it.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline MikeyN.C.

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2018, 02:30:53 pm »
LJ,
Thanks for that info. and experiment.

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2018, 06:23:31 pm »
[...] bees seem to avoid attaching comb to the fishing line unless they absolutely have to.

I think that's the key to it's use.   It appears there's been a huge misunderstanding here - I don't remember anyone ever suggesting that nylon fishing line be used instead of wire when installing foundation - but rather only when running foundationless comb. 

The difference being - that with foundationless, the fishing-line lies in the plane of the future mid-rib - and so the bees are obliged to incorporate it, or begin to draw comb 'off-centre'.

When using f/line with foundation - the line is already outside of the plane of the mid-rib, and so they duly avoid incorporating it.
LJ

Mmmmm... my poor use of wording has led you astray LJ?
I should have put... " the bees seem intent on removing any comb
attached to fishing line"???
The FL was embedded mechanicly. That is the only frame left with
sufficent comb/foundation left on it to be worth photographing!
As the bees havn't been in major expansion mode for months I can
only assume they tossed the wax out the door. Some of it closeup
looks like they were stripping the foundation away to build their own
from the topbar.
I didn't want to name names but I'll try and find the tutorial video
the discussion used as reference. From memory the intention was to
install with foundation sheet in place. Cheers.

Bill

Offline sc-bee

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2963
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2018, 08:15:12 pm »
One of the original tutorials about using fishing line was fatbeeman (but plenty out there now ). And I have found using fishing line, for me, depends on the flow and of course that can be location dependent.

The foundation fatbeeman uses is home made and no wires....

John 3:16

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2018, 08:19:57 pm »
One of the original tutorials started with fatbeeman.
(edit)

... rings a bell. It was a while back so I 'll stop looking now.

Bill

Offline little john

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1483
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2018, 01:02:54 pm »
Seems that I stand corrected ...

Quote
Mmmmm... my poor use of wording has led you astray LJ?
I should have put... " the bees seem intent on removing any comb
attached to fishing line"???

Likewise ... when I wrote "I don't remember anyone ever suggesting ..." - should have written "I've personally never suggested ..."

I'm really surprised to learn that nylon fishing line has been recommended for supporting foundation.  Even in the above video - if you read the comments - one person was describing foundation 'cut-away' way back in 2009.

In my experience, bees will only incorporate nylon fishing line if they have zero alternative options.  Don't know exactly what it is that they don't like about it - but they don't. 
Here's a typical example of one of my 'good' foundationless fishing-line combs:




And for anyone with poor eyesight such as mine - here's a better shot of the line:




But this is what happens occasionally, usually in small areas:



and




But sometimes it can get really bad - this is the worst I've seen:



Whether being off-centre caused this, or whether the line's presence caused the comb to be drawn off-centre in the first place - who knows ?  Who cares ?   The bottom line is that I found fishing-line to be an unpredictable method, and so started using skewers, thusly:



I'm not saying that's anything like a 'good' comb, but simply that using skewers produces a predictable structure - I'd still like to improve the aesthetic appearance if possible.

As you know, I'm currently trialling all-round wax starters on mating-nuc frames, and if this proves successful, then I'll try the same technique on full-sized frames to see if foundationless frames without any reinforcement whatsoever is realistic.  If so, then that would be the perfect solution (for brood combs).
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2018, 11:31:44 pm »
I have not watched that video as personally I cannot stomach his bee approach, to a few
things, not just 'teaching'. But in the discussion I cannot recall homemade foundation being
mentioned, just foundation per se. I could have that cockedup too :-)

For me the takehome message is to not advocate for this method.
Process is binned.
Thanks for all input, appreciated muchly :-))

Bill

Offline sc-bee

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2963
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 11:42:28 pm »
Here are some of my pics with foundation. I have found in our short flow window that they are picky when they will draw it vs cut it. We only get an 8 week spring flow if we are lucky and no fall flow. I normally just use the crimped deep and don't use any wire of any kind. I had some foundation that the bottom crimped wire got damaged on so I cut the bottom wires off with wire cutters to make it fit and used the line on the outside for extra support to hold it in place.

They seem to Incorporated the mono in the honey frames better than the brood. All these frames have heavy fishing line. On one of the pics look close and you can see it running through the honey cells.









And this one was a full take (complete draw) on a brood frame

John 3:16

Offline sc-bee

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2963
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 11:44:54 pm »
But in the discussion I cannot recall homemade foundation being
mentioned, just foundation per se. I could have that cockedup too :-)
Bill

I just happen to know who this guy is and I know he has a press and I know he makes his own wireless foundation (small cell). And I agree, the fishing line is hit and miss and I do it rarely. I rarely wire at all.... Not wiring at all is just the way I was taught using crimped wire...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 12:00:37 am by sc-bee »
John 3:16

Offline Hops Brewster

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 589
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2018, 11:34:42 am »
Never having tried fishing line of any type, just ruminating here;
Might it be possible that the nylon monofilament is poorly accepted/utilized because nylon is so slick, therefore wax won't easily adhere to it?  Nylon bushings or bearings are used in some machinery because it is so slick.

OTH, would braided line have a better surface for the wax to adhere?

Steel, stainless or otherwise, has a rather coarse texture under a magnifier, so is easily used to attach wax.

merely a meandering mind...

Winter is coming.

I can't say I hate the government, but I am proudly distrustful of them.

Online sawdstmakr

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 11044
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2018, 02:42:51 pm »
Hops,
That is probably the reason.
Jim

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2018, 06:08:44 pm »
Hops,
That is probably the reason.
Jim

I'll plead guilty as charged, enough hops and my mind definitely meanders!!
:chucklez:

I did mention I was giving braid a run, yeah????

Bill

Offline Hops Brewster

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 589
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2018, 10:41:09 am »
Looking forward to your findings.
Winter is coming.

I can't say I hate the government, but I am proudly distrustful of them.

Offline beehappy1950

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 227
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2018, 10:19:20 pm »
I think from my experience that when you build combs during a flow they dont care how it is wired. But give then wired or fishing lined when the flow is off and they will make a mess out of it. Too much time on thier hands, their minds wander. They are women.  :shocked:

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 'Plastic' wiring of frames - example
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2018, 05:56:12 am »
I think from my experience that when you build combs during a flow they dont care how it is wired. But give then wired or fishing lined when the flow is off and they will make a mess out of it. Too much time on thier hands, their minds wander. They are women.  :shocked:
Happy to 'hear' your experience differs.
I cannot and would not sail 10, 000 miles to excite
myself with success, albeit I risk the women between
Ports would likely bust a blood vessel or two and so I
might just welcome that end, flag on the rise, like. :-D

Bill