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Author Topic: A few questions  (Read 2660 times)

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2017, 04:23:27 pm »
>Are you happy with DT as President?

You can't impeach a president because you aren't happy with them.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2017, 05:19:50 pm »
Quote
Impeachment is getting closer
On what grounds?

No longer need grounds.  Once the democrates get majority they will undo everything that Trump and the republicans did except get back the money that was lost to the rich.  I suspect indictments will not come to his family until DT is no longer president.  He can't pardon anything after that.
Mike, the two party system and the electoral college serves big money well so the rules will never be changed unless of course there is a revolution.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2017, 05:43:51 pm »
Quote
Impeachment is getting closer
On what grounds?

No longer need grounds.  Once the democrates get majority they will undo everything that Trump and the republicans did except get back the money that was lost to the rich.  I suspect indictments will not come to his family until DT is no longer president.  He can't pardon anything after that.
Mike, the two party system and the electoral college serves big money well so the rules will never be changed unless of course there is a revolution.

So are you advocating mob rule rather than the rule of law?  Sounds very fascist or Nazi to me.  Get your brown or black shirts and gather in the city square with like-minded bulies and misfits and establish your own rules? 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2017, 08:18:44 am »
So are you advocating mob rule rather than the rule of law?
How ironic.  This is what we have now.
I am for a popular vote and a no party system.  Something else that will never happen because money rules.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2017, 01:46:03 pm »
Strange how the left twists things so that they look like the good guys when in fact they are the fascists.  An example is eugenics, which was the brainchild of the "progressives" and, when nobody in this country objected to forced sterilization, lobotomies and similar "treatments" for "mental defectives" and others, was adopted by Hitler's regime and carried to its logical end. After the world recoiled in horror at the discovery of the ovens and mass graves, the "progressives" hoped the world would forget that the whole scheme was originally owned by them.  Most have, in fact, forgotten that this and some other travesties were the product of left-wing thinkers of the early 1900s, including the 1920s and 1930s, when Mussolini and Hitler were adored by many on the left in this country, including even a lot of Jews who didn't read "mein kampf" closely enough.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline kathyp

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2017, 03:32:38 pm »
Quote
I am for a popular vote and a no party system.  Something else that will never happen because money rules.

So you would be happy to have a couple of major population centers elect the president with no other part of the country having a say? 

Can you explain how money rules the electoral college?
Can you explain how mob rule now elects the president? 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2017, 05:54:58 pm »
So you would be happy to have a couple of major population centers elect the president with no other part of the country having a say? 
As far as I am concerned this defies all logic.  Popular vote makes every vote equal.  The electoral college makes every vote unequal. It is beyond me why everyone who supports the electoral college makes this faults statement.

Quote
Can you explain how money rules the electoral college?
Congress is nothing but money and influenced by money.
Quote
Can you explain how mob rule now elects the president?
The mob is money, approximately 1% of the population.  Some would say they are gangsters.  There is the Republican mob and the Democrat mob.  Trump likes to call it the swamp but it extends far beyond the swamp.
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Online iddee

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2017, 06:48:07 pm »
So, Ace, you think 16% of the US should be able to elect a president when 84% want someone else. Sorry, that's just not going to happen. That's why we have the electoral collage.


""Overall Trump won approximately 2,600 counties to Clinton?s 500, or about 84% of the geographic United States. However, Clinton won 88 of of the 100 largest counties (including Washington D.C.). Without these 100 largest counties she would have lost by 11.5 million votes.""

http://brilliantmaps.com/2016-county-election-map/
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2017, 07:00:00 pm »
But for the Electoral College, the individual states would have remained a loose confederation of nation-states and there would be no United States.  The interests of Boston, Philadelphia, New York and a few other population centers would have dominated against the interests of agrarian states and they would have been trading partners at times and at other times they would have been either competing or involved in hostilities, something like the nation states of Europe before the unification of the Germanic states into Germany, the little states that became Italy, etc.

There was a lot of negotiation of ideas and wording that went into the founding documents.  Fortunately, the founding fathers were smarter than any of us and they worked out the details you want to brush aside, Brian. 

All that being said, there are times I wish the leftist coasts could secede and try going it alone.  Try raising wheat and cattle and corn in Central Park and on Rodeo Drive to feed the masses seeking refuge in the sanctuary cities and sanctuary states they're so fond of.

Again, not that building a wall is the answer. We have to find a way to assimilate the millions of immigrants who WANT to assimilate and deport the ones who simply want entitlements paid for by those who do assimilate.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline kathyp

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2017, 07:07:21 pm »
Quote
As far as I am concerned this defies all logic.  Popular vote makes every vote equal.  The electoral college makes every vote unequal. It is beyond me why everyone who supports the electoral college makes this faults statement.

It is about representation.  With your system, very few places would choose the president for the entire country.  If you look at the map of the last election, it is apparent that the majority of the country did not think Hillary would be a good leader for them.  You would have places like LA and NYC making decisions for the entire country in perpetuity. Do you think the people of NYC have any idea what the people of North Dakota want or need?  No.  The proof of that is that the majority of the country voted in BO twice and they were disappointed in the result, and so the majority of the country decided they did not want more of the same.   

You complain about money and power influencing policy, and it does to some extent, but consider where most of that money and power is and how much more influence it would have if decisionmaking was forever concentrated in those places.

 
Quote
Congress is nothing but money and influenced by money.
What does that have to do with the electoral college?


Quote
Can you explain how mob rule now elects the president?
The mob is money, approximately 1% of the population.  Some would say they are gangsters.  There is the Republican mob and the Democrat mob.  Trump likes to call it the swamp but it extends far beyond the swamp.

And yet your "mob" didn't want Trump.  Again, how does mob rule elect a president with the process we have now?


They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2017, 09:55:24 pm »
It is about representation.  With your system, very few places would choose the president for the entire country.
Kathy, you are walking around with blinders on.  Who do you think elected Trump?  Do you think it is the people of Wyoming, Nebraska, Utah, or Kansas?  He was elected by Wall Street.  Where is Wall Street?  There is nothing like an educated ostrich burring their head in the sand.
These four states I mentioned will never elect a president but they could have a voice.

Quote
What does that have to do with the electoral college?
Eliminating the electoral college will require congress so it will never happen without revolution.  No different than hoping congress will have the same health care that the rest of the country has regardless of what it is.

Quote
And yet your "mob" didn't want Trump.  Again, how does mob rule elect a president with the process we have now?
Asking the same question twice and not understanding my answer leaves you in the dark.  I am only going to repeat my answer.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2017, 10:50:42 pm »
Brian, you obviously have never heard of the Socratic dialectic approach.  If you are forced to define the terms of your argument, the fallacies you espouse should become evident to you.  Answer the questions and you may learn, Grasshopper.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2017, 08:19:38 am »
I have no doubt that if winning the popular vote was the way to win the election, Trump would have run his campaign to do that and he would have won that.  As it is he didn't miss it by much and that was not his goal at all.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline Acebird

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2017, 09:48:08 am »
I have no doubt that if winning the popular vote was the way to win the election, Trump would have run his campaign to do that and he would have won that.  As it is he didn't miss it by much and that was not his goal at all.

Thank you Mike, this is my point.  I agree, he probably would have won either way.  Over the long run though if there was a popular vote, no electoral college and no two party system we wouldn't be faced with two horrible choices.  There would be more choices and there would be better choices.  As long as money and its influence dictates who the choices are they will always be bad for the middle class.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2017, 09:56:48 am »
Brian, you obviously have never heard of the Socratic dialectic approach.

Does that approach involve asking the question three or four times until you get the answer you are looking for?  I think not.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2017, 01:28:26 pm »
Quote
Does that approach involve asking the question three or four times until you get the answer you are looking for?  I think not.

I ask questions so that I understand your thought process.  I think I understand your thought process.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online iddee

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2017, 01:34:42 pm »
""I ask questions so that I understand your thought process.  I think I understand your thought process.""

Or lack thereof.  :tongue:   :cheesy:
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2017, 02:17:27 pm »
>  Over the long run though if there was a popular vote, no electoral college and no two party system we wouldn't be faced with two horrible choices.  There would be more choices and there would be better choices.

What is your reason for believing this?  The two party system is the problem and how they decide on their candidates.  The Electoral college was intended to be the body that elects the president with the idea that they would choose.  The original system was NOT that a particular elector belonged to a particular candidate.  The states elected the electors who got together to decide who would be president and vice president.  That was a much better system where they could choose whoever they liked.  When I first voted for President of the US they had the electors on the ballet and the candidate they were loyal to listed under that electors name...  It has changed a lot from its original intent, but the intent was that the President was NOT elected by the people.  The original intent was the Senators were not elected by the people either, but by the legislature of the state they represented.  Also a better system as the legislators were electing one of their own, who they know rather than the people electing some guy they have never met or worked with.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2017, 03:03:27 pm »
Brian, you obviously have never heard of the Socratic dialectic approach.

Does that approach involve asking the question three or four times until you get the answer you are looking for?  I think not.

It requires a person to clearly define every term he or she uses.  Bill clinton was referring to this method, in a way, when he said it depends on the definition of what "is" is.  That went over well, though, didn't it?
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2017, 05:27:11 pm »
>  Over the long run though if there was a popular vote, no electoral college and no two party system we wouldn't be faced with two horrible choices.  There would be more choices and there would be better choices.

What is your reason for believing this?  The two party system is the problem and how they decide on their candidates.
I think I was saying the same thing but maybe not.  I don't care what went on in the 1800's.  It is not relevant today.  For the most part the population today in the US is educated unlike the 1800's.  There are groups of people that can vote today that couldn't vote back then.  We don't need an educated electoral college to vote for us because we are illiterate.
Brian Cardinal
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