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Offline Dallasbeek

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Carrying in church
« on: November 19, 2017, 12:55:33 pm »
This from Alice Tripp, lagislative director of the Texas State Rifle Association:

Carrying in Church
Since the Sutherland Springs tragedy, Texans with a handgun license are asking for reassurance, "Can licensees carry in a church?"   The easy answer is YES.   State law does not prohibit you and has not since 1997,  however your church might!
Read, print and save the link below:
The link to PC 46.035 (i)

The Back Story
In 1995 when CHL law finally passed, the answer to the Church Question was NO.  Initially churches were a prohibited location. 

Then in 1997, when the language to Penal Code 30.06 passed creating the sign familiar to licensees, one line was added to PC 46.035.    It is located in law at PC 46.035 (i).    Check out line (i) on the link to the bill.

The addition of that one line (i) treats churches as other private property.  Churches and church property were longer prohibited unless the sign is posted.    

An attempt was made by the "other side" in 1999 to make churches prohibited locations again. The committee refused to vote and the bill died

My minister testified: "The Peace of God is not disturbed by law-abiding citizens exercising their constitutional rights.  In addition,  our country was founded on the separation of church and state and I do not need the state of Texas telling my people how to manage their property. "
 
Should PC 46.035 be clarified?  

Well of course, but it was the best that could be passed in 1997 and has worked well for 20 years.   

If your church decides to allow those with a handgun license to carry but doesn't want to see a handgun, it's possible to either post PC 30.07 or to give effective notice which can mean a "cover up, please" card.   

Posting both 30.06 and PC 30.07 is required to fully prohibit handgun licensees.   Consider this, are licensees a bigger concern for the church than criminals?   Signs do not stop criminals.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 08:33:56 pm »
Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.
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Online iddee

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 08:51:15 pm »
That sounds much better than being just another one of the mass. At least people will know you tried.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline herbhome

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2017, 08:53:59 pm »
Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.

This assumes one handgun in the church. A half dozen scattered about will most likely stop this nut.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2017, 09:06:43 pm »
A half dozen might make it more fun for the nut case.  Keep in mind he plans on dying anyway.  A dozen might be an advantage but my guess is you would be lucky if 3 remember to bring their gun to church.  Then there is the other problem are you going to keep shooting at him if he hides behind three hostages or are you going to lay down your gun?
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Online iddee

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2017, 09:42:01 pm »
My guess is 3 that he isn't expecting would be enough.  As for others he may be hiding behind, it wouldn't help him if the 3 or more were on all sides of him. Besides, he would likely stop firing if he was hiding behind someone and trying to keep them in front of him.
In the worst case scenario, a choice of one or two victims compared to 20 or 30, I would have to take a chance of missing him when I fired right next to the hostage. Then get him when the hostage fell. You can't expect to save the world, but saving a few is better than all dieing.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2017, 12:20:00 am »
Sorry, I'm not giving up my gun even if the hostage is my wife or son. I'm not giving him total control. If I have my gun in hand, I have a good chance of stopping him. Without it he can and probably will kill every one he can.
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Offline herbhome

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 12:29:09 am »
The various scenarios can go on indefinitely. My sense is that one or two nuts intent on mass killing yet shot to pieces by angry parishioners might deter the next one that pops up. Won't stop him from trying another mass gathering though.
Neill

Offline Psparr

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2017, 08:30:58 am »
I think I?ll attend Idees church before Aces.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2017, 10:04:48 am »
My sense is that one or two nuts intent on mass killing yet shot to pieces by angry parishioners might deter the next one that pops up.

It has no effect at all as a deterrent.  Someone who is mentally ill is not a rational thinker.  What was it a week or two between the texas shooting and the Ca shooting?  In fact it is more apt to escalate the shootings due to the "me too" syndrome.
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Offline Psparr

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2017, 10:36:34 am »
My sense is that one or two nuts intent on mass killing yet shot to pieces by angry parishioners might deter the next one that pops up.

It has no effect at all as a deterrent.  Someone who is mentally ill is not a rational thinker.  What was it a week or two between the texas shooting and the Ca shooting?  In fact it is more apt to escalate the shootings due to the "me too" syndrome.
Is that so? Then tell me why mass shootings always happen in gun free zones. Just a coincidence?

Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2017, 11:18:59 am »
Are you trying to say that there are no guns in gun free zones.  Most schools have armed security.  The means when they see someone with a gun they already know who the bad guy is.
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Offline paus

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2017, 12:32:32 pm »
Ace, carrying is not a deterrent.  I am friends with some of the people in the first church shooting, to my knowledge, that made national news, it was  in northeast Texas. One of these people had written articles in local papers criticizing people for carrying guns in gun racks  in their pickups.  He was in that church he told me that his first thought was "doesn't anyone have a gun to stop him?" Carrying in church is not a deterrent but it can cut the  losses in the hands of the right person, and I am the first to advocate the right person.  This should not be a spur of the moment " I think I'll carry today". 
There should be thoughtful planning, with no surprises, and all of those that are carrying are in on the considerable planning process.   All those carrying should know whose responsibility is what.  The first rule is "If it doesn't look right or feel right, check it out and be prepared to take appropriate response".
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:56:30 pm by paus »

Offline Jim 134

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2017, 02:34:43 pm »
Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.

      Has it ever been proven that this attack that The intruder  had automatic weapons  ????   If you do pull that a concealed weapon ..It's not show ...Most all casualties  happen in the 1st 5 seconds of a Fire fight ...

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2017, 05:27:33 pm »
One of these people had written articles in local papers criticizing people for carrying guns in gun racks  in their pickups.

It was done when I was a kid but today for the shear cost of the guns it is not too popular today.  You might understand that in any metropolitan area the gun would be stolen today.  Probably would have been back in my day.
Quote
Carrying in church is not a deterrent but it can cut the  losses in the hands of the right person, and I am the first to advocate the right person.
I am not against concealed carry in church.  I just don't think it is the answer today to protect the general population.
[/quote]
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2017, 05:30:22 pm »
Has it ever been proven that this attack that The intruder  had automatic weapons  ?
What I heard reported was an AR15 with taped together magazines.  Don't know if it is true or not.
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Offline Jim 134

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2017, 05:46:29 pm »
Has it ever been proven that this attack that The intruder  had automatic weapons  ?
What I heard reported was an AR15 with taped together magazines.  Don't know if it is true or not.

  I see you're still you. Did not answer  my Question .


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Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2017, 08:06:18 am »
Did not answer  my Question .

If it is that important to you just pay for the police report.  It is not that important to me to give you proof.
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Offline Groundhawg

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2017, 09:58:27 am »
Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.

Do not want to be either but I choose being a martyr over being a victim.

Also up to now none of the attacks have been committed by someone with an automatic weapon.
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Offline Groundhawg

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2017, 10:03:23 am »
Are you trying to say that there are no guns in gun free zones.  Most schools have armed security.  The means when they see someone with a gun they already know who the bad guy is.

Wrong.  Most schools do not have ANY security, armed or unarmed.  Thirty + years teaching in 3 different states and only a handful of schools had SRO.
Gracious words are like a honey comb, sweetness to the soul and health to the body.  Proverbs 16:24

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2017, 12:31:48 pm »


Also up to now none of the attacks have been committed by someone with an automatic weapon.

To those misinformed individuals with little or no understanding of firearm terminology, an auto-loading or self-loading semi-automatic firearm is an "automatic weapon".  It just reveals how little they know about the subject and, therefore, how much (little) their opinion counts.  Dismiss them or educate them.  Better still, take them to the range, instruct them and let them gain first-hand experience with a firearm.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2017, 02:08:32 pm »
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Offline Jim 134

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2017, 06:02:34 pm »
Are you trying to say that there are no guns in gun free zones.  Most schools have armed security.  The means when they see someone with a gun they already know who the bad guy is.

Wrong.  Most schools do not have ANY security, armed or unarmed.  Thirty + years teaching in 3 different states and only a handful of schools had SRO.
  Is far as I know every Public school district in Massachusetts .
Has at leased one Police officer with cruiser ..On duty When students are present .I believe the actual title Is "Safety Officer"

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« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 06:47:42 pm by Jim 134 »
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2017, 06:17:46 pm »
School district is very different from one school.  The Dallas Independent School District probably has hundreds of individual schools -- elementary, junior high and high schools.  There aren't rnough police officers in the city to cover all those schools and still have police out doing their job on the streets.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2017, 06:22:31 pm »
Plus, I think the DISD has its own police force, but they don't have that many cops, either. 

And then you've got the independent school district for each little town, where they only have a police force of a couple of officers and there are a half dozen schools.

Do the math.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2017, 06:24:16 pm »
When trouble is imminent, help is only minutes away.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Jim 134

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2017, 06:51:35 pm »
Did not answer  my Question .

If it is that important to you just pay for the police report.  It is not that important to me to give you proof.

IMO
  You sound like another spin doctor without any facts ..

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2017, 09:04:50 pm »
Jim, I don't know what you are referring to with the term "spin doctor" but if you want the facts go find them.  Each group has their own set of facts.  You will certainly not believe mine.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2017, 10:18:29 am »
>Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.

You will end up being a martyr if you don't.  He may end up a martyr if you do.
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Offline Jim 134

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2017, 10:08:31 am »
>Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.

You will end up being a martyr if you don't.  He may end up a martyr if you do.

 That's for sure ...


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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2017, 10:26:36 am »
>Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.

I have never heard of a "nut case with an automatic weapon".  That simply does not happen.  The licencing for automatic weapons is strict enough that criminals never bother.  You would need an FBI background check and a $200 tax stamp to get automatic weapons in addition to the high price tag for the weapon itself.  Besides, I don't care anyway.  An automatic isn't more deadly than a well aimed single shot, bolt, lever, revolver or semi-auto.  It only takes one well aimed shot to take out the bad guy and it's only a question of getting off that shot while he's preoccupied with all the other people in the room.  I would take that shot even if he was currently aiming at me and I'd take him on even if I didn't have a gun, I'd use my knife, and if I didn't have the knife (I only don't have one when I fly)  I'd rush him anyway.  What do you have to lose?  I'm not going to wait around for him to shoot me or anyone else.  There is a big difference between a "shooter" and someone who does not really want to kill anyone and also does not want to die.  That person that doesn't want to kill anyone and doesn't want to die, you can talk to and maybe not doing something is the right thing.  But the "shooter" is intent on killing a lot of people and then himself.  It's a no brainer to defend yourself and others.

>When trouble is imminent, help is only minutes away.

I've called the police... I would say it's only hours away...
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Offline Groundhawg

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2017, 11:53:41 am »
Are you trying to say that there are no guns in gun free zones.  Most schools have armed security.  The means when they see someone with a gun they already know who the bad guy is.

Wrong.  Most schools do not have ANY security, armed or unarmed.  Thirty + years teaching in 3 different states and only a handful of schools had SRO.
  Is far as I know every Public school district in Massachusetts .
Has at leased one Police officer with cruiser ..On duty When students are present .I believe the actual title Is "Safety Officer"

             BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:

Is every school district or every school have an officer?  Have worked in FL, GA, and Alabama and each county had at most three officers which moved from school to school and only in the JR and high school(s).  Just not enough officers for every school.  Wish they did, not don't.
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Online kathyp

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2017, 12:06:14 pm »
Quote
Weapon of choice...  Appears to be deadly enough.

They count a "mass shooting" as anything over 3 people.  They either have to change how they count them, or this is inaccurate.  If you use their definition of mass shooting, most shootings are done with handguns and the majority of those are gang related with family disputes coming behind that. 
Quote
Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.

When is the last time anyone committed a mass shooting with an automatic weapon?
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2017, 01:05:08 pm »
Quote
Weapon of choice...  Appears to be deadly enough.



When is the last time anyone committed a mass shooting with an automatic weapon?

In the United States?  Other than at the Branch Davidian compound?  Oh, you mean by a civilian, right?  My guess is never, or at least none since Prohibition days, which predate the NFA.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2017, 03:53:32 pm »
When trouble is imminent, help is only minutes away.
More like 25 minutes where I live. I have had to call for emergency medical to save a 4 year old and that is what it took and the police arrived after the fire truck.
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Online kathyp

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2017, 07:41:49 pm »
Quote
More like 25 minutes where I live. I have had to call for emergency medical to save a 4 year old and that is what it took and the police arrived after the fire truck.

They are called responders for a reason.  The thing has already happened and they are responding to it. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Jim 134

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2017, 12:36:35 pm »
Quote
Weapon of choice...  Appears to be deadly enough.



When is the last time anyone committed a mass shooting with an automatic weapon?

In the United States?  Other than at the Branch Davidian compound?  Oh, you mean by a civilian, right?  My guess is never, or at least none since Prohibition days, which predate the NFA.
Did both sides have automatic weapons ?  If I have a correctly that was more like a church against the government ...Or maybe it was the other way .A government against  church ..I do believe the government Showed  up with armored vehicles ..


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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2017, 01:12:47 pm »

Did both sides have automatic weapons ?  If I have a correctly that was more like a church against the government ...Or maybe it was the other way .A government against  church ..I do believe the government Showed  up with armored vehicles ..


       BEE HAPPY Jim 134   :smile:
[/quote]

I don't think the Branch Davidians had automatic weapons.  The military showed up with not just armored vehicles but battle tanks and, after a prolonged standoff, blew the place apart, killing everybody in it, including women and children.  It was the modern equivalent of Wounded Knee and other "battles" against Native Americans.   
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2017, 01:21:30 pm »
>Did both sides have automatic weapons ?

I think that was his point.  Only the government did and they were the ones doing the "mass shooting".

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Offline Jim 134

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2017, 01:14:41 am »
       There was a disgruntled member .At this church who made all kind accusations to the authorities ..The authorities had no proof except for hearsay from this person ..No one  at the branch Davidian did not have Any automatic weapons .I do believe there was a cover up By the government .They did Use Tanks  Against the branch  davidians . Which The government was not supposed to be used against the public at that time ..

It comes down to who are policing the police   :(
     

                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:






                     
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2017, 01:57:53 am »
As I understand it, the tipping point was when there was an allegation that the girl children were being subjected to sexual abuse.  Then Janet Reno gave the order to move in.  Last time I looked, the acts alleged were not federal offenses, but she gave the order based on that allegation.  So the result was that whether or not the children were being molested, they were killed by military forces as a result of Attorney General Janet Reno's orders to engage the "enemy" at the compound. 

Where is the outrage of "*****lives matter" or some such?
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2017, 10:50:09 am »
>... there was an allegation that the girl children were being subjected to sexual abuse.

Allegations that had already been made and investigated and found false before the whole incident.
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Online kathyp

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2017, 11:13:39 am »
David Koresh was the one they really wanted and the weapons issue in the compound may have been legit.  Koresh was often out of the compound along with his LTs, so they could have picked him up at any time.

Reno was a complete idiot and apparently, everyone around who might have given her advice were idiots also.  I don't think we saw such a string of CFs from any AG ever, although the Obama AGs managed to come really close.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2017, 12:22:59 pm »
>... there was an allegation that the girl children were being subjected to sexual abuse.

Allegations that had already been made and investigated and found false before the whole incident.

The state of Child Protective Services in Texas at the time put their findings in question, if that agency was the one investigating.  It is still badly in need of an overhaul, but may be better than it was at thst time.  They would find problems where none existed in one place and in another find everything just fine, only to have a child murdered in a home they had found to be okay.  Which is not to say Reno didn't drive her tanks in needlessly.

And yes, David Koresh was frequently seen in Waco, shopping or whatever.  It was a major governmental fiasco that resulted in 4 ATF agents and a total of 82 Branch Davidians being killed after a 51-day siege of the compound. 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944