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Author Topic: Carrying in church  (Read 3037 times)

Offline Dallasbeek

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Carrying in church
« on: November 19, 2017, 12:55:33 pm »
This from Alice Tripp, lagislative director of the Texas State Rifle Association:

Carrying in Church
Since the Sutherland Springs tragedy, Texans with a handgun license are asking for reassurance, "Can licensees carry in a church?"   The easy answer is YES.   State law does not prohibit you and has not since 1997,  however your church might!
Read, print and save the link below:
The link to PC 46.035 (i)

The Back Story
In 1995 when CHL law finally passed, the answer to the Church Question was NO.  Initially churches were a prohibited location. 

Then in 1997, when the language to Penal Code 30.06 passed creating the sign familiar to licensees, one line was added to PC 46.035.    It is located in law at PC 46.035 (i).    Check out line (i) on the link to the bill.

The addition of that one line (i) treats churches as other private property.  Churches and church property were longer prohibited unless the sign is posted.    

An attempt was made by the "other side" in 1999 to make churches prohibited locations again. The committee refused to vote and the bill died

My minister testified: "The Peace of God is not disturbed by law-abiding citizens exercising their constitutional rights.  In addition,  our country was founded on the separation of church and state and I do not need the state of Texas telling my people how to manage their property. "
 
Should PC 46.035 be clarified?  

Well of course, but it was the best that could be passed in 1997 and has worked well for 20 years.   

If your church decides to allow those with a handgun license to carry but doesn't want to see a handgun, it's possible to either post PC 30.07 or to give effective notice which can mean a "cover up, please" card.   

Posting both 30.06 and PC 30.07 is required to fully prohibit handgun licensees.   Consider this, are licensees a bigger concern for the church than criminals?   Signs do not stop criminals.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 08:33:56 pm »
Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 08:51:15 pm »
That sounds much better than being just another one of the mass. At least people will know you tried.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline herbhome

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2017, 08:53:59 pm »
Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.

This assumes one handgun in the church. A half dozen scattered about will most likely stop this nut.
Neill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2017, 09:06:43 pm »
A half dozen might make it more fun for the nut case.  Keep in mind he plans on dying anyway.  A dozen might be an advantage but my guess is you would be lucky if 3 remember to bring their gun to church.  Then there is the other problem are you going to keep shooting at him if he hides behind three hostages or are you going to lay down your gun?
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Offline iddee

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2017, 09:42:01 pm »
My guess is 3 that he isn't expecting would be enough.  As for others he may be hiding behind, it wouldn't help him if the 3 or more were on all sides of him. Besides, he would likely stop firing if he was hiding behind someone and trying to keep them in front of him.
In the worst case scenario, a choice of one or two victims compared to 20 or 30, I would have to take a chance of missing him when I fired right next to the hostage. Then get him when the hostage fell. You can't expect to save the world, but saving a few is better than all dieing.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2017, 12:20:00 am »
Sorry, I'm not giving up my gun even if the hostage is my wife or son. I'm not giving him total control. If I have my gun in hand, I have a good chance of stopping him. Without it he can and probably will kill every one he can.
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Offline herbhome

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 12:29:09 am »
The various scenarios can go on indefinitely. My sense is that one or two nuts intent on mass killing yet shot to pieces by angry parishioners might deter the next one that pops up. Won't stop him from trying another mass gathering though.
Neill

Offline Psparr

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2017, 08:30:58 am »
I think I?ll attend Idees church before Aces.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2017, 10:04:48 am »
My sense is that one or two nuts intent on mass killing yet shot to pieces by angry parishioners might deter the next one that pops up.

It has no effect at all as a deterrent.  Someone who is mentally ill is not a rational thinker.  What was it a week or two between the texas shooting and the Ca shooting?  In fact it is more apt to escalate the shootings due to the "me too" syndrome.
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Offline Psparr

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2017, 10:36:34 am »
My sense is that one or two nuts intent on mass killing yet shot to pieces by angry parishioners might deter the next one that pops up.

It has no effect at all as a deterrent.  Someone who is mentally ill is not a rational thinker.  What was it a week or two between the texas shooting and the Ca shooting?  In fact it is more apt to escalate the shootings due to the "me too" syndrome.
Is that so? Then tell me why mass shootings always happen in gun free zones. Just a coincidence?

Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2017, 11:18:59 am »
Are you trying to say that there are no guns in gun free zones.  Most schools have armed security.  The means when they see someone with a gun they already know who the bad guy is.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline paus

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2017, 12:32:32 pm »
Ace, carrying is not a deterrent.  I am friends with some of the people in the first church shooting, to my knowledge, that made national news, it was  in northeast Texas. One of these people had written articles in local papers criticizing people for carrying guns in gun racks  in their pickups.  He was in that church he told me that his first thought was "doesn't anyone have a gun to stop him?" Carrying in church is not a deterrent but it can cut the  losses in the hands of the right person, and I am the first to advocate the right person.  This should not be a spur of the moment " I think I'll carry today". 
There should be thoughtful planning, with no surprises, and all of those that are carrying are in on the considerable planning process.   All those carrying should know whose responsibility is what.  The first rule is "If it doesn't look right or feel right, check it out and be prepared to take appropriate response".
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:56:30 pm by paus »

Offline Jim 134

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2017, 02:34:43 pm »
Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.

      Has it ever been proven that this attack that The intruder  had automatic weapons  ????   If you do pull that a concealed weapon ..It's not show ...Most all casualties  happen in the 1st 5 seconds of a Fire fight ...

      BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2017, 05:27:33 pm »
One of these people had written articles in local papers criticizing people for carrying guns in gun racks  in their pickups.

It was done when I was a kid but today for the shear cost of the guns it is not too popular today.  You might understand that in any metropolitan area the gun would be stolen today.  Probably would have been back in my day.
Quote
Carrying in church is not a deterrent but it can cut the  losses in the hands of the right person, and I am the first to advocate the right person.
I am not against concealed carry in church.  I just don't think it is the answer today to protect the general population.
[/quote]
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2017, 05:30:22 pm »
Has it ever been proven that this attack that The intruder  had automatic weapons  ?
What I heard reported was an AR15 with taped together magazines.  Don't know if it is true or not.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Jim 134

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2017, 05:46:29 pm »
Has it ever been proven that this attack that The intruder  had automatic weapons  ?
What I heard reported was an AR15 with taped together magazines.  Don't know if it is true or not.

  I see you're still you. Did not answer  my Question .


           BEEHAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline Acebird

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2017, 08:06:18 am »
Did not answer  my Question .

If it is that important to you just pay for the police report.  It is not that important to me to give you proof.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Groundhawg

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2017, 09:58:27 am »
Most likely if you pull your pop gun out against a heavily armed nut case with an automatic weapon you will end up being a martyr.

Do not want to be either but I choose being a martyr over being a victim.

Also up to now none of the attacks have been committed by someone with an automatic weapon.
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Offline Groundhawg

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Re: Carrying in church
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2017, 10:03:23 am »
Are you trying to say that there are no guns in gun free zones.  Most schools have armed security.  The means when they see someone with a gun they already know who the bad guy is.

Wrong.  Most schools do not have ANY security, armed or unarmed.  Thirty + years teaching in 3 different states and only a handful of schools had SRO.
Gracious words are like a honey comb, sweetness to the soul and health to the body.  Proverbs 16:24