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Author Topic: Lost Nuc, why?  (Read 1632 times)

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2017, 10:15:59 am »
>Regardless of what killed them the advice to reuse the old frames is irresponsible.  Burn them & start again.

The ONLY reason to burn a hive is AFB.   It is far to expensive to burn a hive that died from anything else and serves NO purpose.
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Offline Russ

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2017, 07:09:48 pm »
I have learnt that burning is only nessasary if AFB proven, and even then there are alternatives to burning. Some just boil the whole hive in water and pressure clean, then send to radiation treatment or visa versa.

To confirm the presence of AFB the HOLST MILK TEST is costless and reliable, if done on three seperate samples of cell contents for accuracy.

I have been using the following method in batches on all used hives I have reconditioned. I use a bath tub with a strong gas burner under.  Takes 2 whole boxes and frames at a time. Total time is one day for 5 triple hives reconditioned and repainted ready to use.

1. Boil in water to remove wax.
2. Boil for 5 min in strong sodium hydroxide solution and preasure clean. This will remove paint from boxes and clean frames and Kill Most AFB spores if present, according to the literature.
3. Then scrape and scrub to remove all debris and remaining propolis. Boil for 5 min in strong sodium hydroxide solution and preasure clean again.
4. Let totally dry for a week during hot days, then Soak for 30+ min in COLD 0.5% sodium hypochlorite solution to totally sterilize all componants, including frames for all disease and pathogens.
5. Repaint and add new foundation to be ready for reuse.

Test a honey sample ANNUALLY for the presence of AFB spores. If count is worrying, recondition all hives and use THE SHOOK SWARM METHOD to reduce spore counts.

Just my two cents worth. Cheers, Russ.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2017, 09:01:57 am »
Value of old equipment vs. cost of reconditioning?  How much are you saving?  How reliable is testing honey if you have top entrance?  Cost of testing honey for spores?
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Offline yantabulla

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2017, 12:48:42 am »
Five crappy old frames.  None of you can be sure that AFB is not present.  Advice like this is the reason AFB is widespread in Australia.  Oh & i'm not crazy.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 01:22:52 am by yantabulla »

Offline little john

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2017, 06:29:29 am »
Five crappy old frames.  None of you can be sure that AFB is not present.  Advice like this is the reason AFB is widespread in Australia.  Oh & i'm not crazy.

Just to clarify - I didn't say you were crazy (I'm not that rude) - I said that was crazy talk: i.e. the advice was crazy.

If AFB is indeed widespread in your country, then your beekeepers really do need to focus more on identifying the disease and taking appropriate action.  Although in the UK we're required by law to alert the authorities of our suspicions in order to obtain a confirmed diagnosis, personally I wouldn't wait for that - I'd take a comb sample for the authorities, then - come evening - it would be a cup of petrol (gasoline), before making a bonfire of the hive.  I wouldn't mess about waiting - even for one day.  But - imo, you really do need some persuasive evidence of Foul Brood before resorting to such drastic measures.

By far the most common causes of colony loss are starvation and Varroa infestation - with both of these being easy enough to identify, either by the absence of stores with bums of dead bees sticking out of combs, or the presence of small white crystals on the brood cell walls, respectively.
Destroying your equipment in either of these cases, or just because you had a Drone Laying Queen, Laying Workers, or some other equally identifiable reason for a colony loss - would be stupid beyond description.

If you should identify the presence of Foul Brood - then by all means burn (other measures being too long-winded and not cost-effective for the hobbyist, imo) - but not unless you have some fairly convincing evidence for the disease's presence.
 
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2017, 09:58:38 am »
I wouldn't mess about waiting - even for one day.  But - imo, you really do need some persuasive evidence of Foul Brood before resorting to such drastic measures.

Maybe the person lacks the ability to find the persuasive evidence.  Just bagging the hive should be a safe enough measure until you get confirmation that indeed the hive has foul brood.  Once confirmed then the burning process can start but for gods sake do not use gasoline use kero.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2017, 02:52:28 pm »
Five crappy old frames.  None of you can be sure that AFB is not present.  Advice like this is the reason AFB is widespread in Australia.  Oh & i'm not crazy.
Yanta,
Here in the USA, AFB, is rather rare, especially in states with inspectors checking for it. In FL, it is found in 1% of the hives inspected. A lot of that probably is brought in. That is why we don't tell our newbees to burn until verified. Almost every newbee here thinks they have it within the first 2 years. I did and all of my mentories have.
Jim
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Offline SB-Russ

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2017, 09:26:10 pm »
Well I went through cutting out the wax moth damage yesterday, and inspecting cells as I went. I cut cells down the the base so I could have a good look. No sign of anything in any of the cells I went through, they?re all just empty apart from a bit of pollen in some, as far as my limited experience can tell.

So I?m going to just freeze the frames to kill any moth eggs, and start again.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2017, 06:15:05 pm »
Five crappy old frames.  None of you can be sure that AFB is not present. 
Advice like this is the reason AFB is widespread in Australia.  Oh & i'm not crazy.

[cough]
"crazy" and "stupid" in text both lack the inflection used in those
expressions of judgement... so really the words could be quantitive
opinion of "sweet fanny adam" . But you *are* 'different', and that is
enough on these 'international' forums. Let it slide, means nothing
anyway in your own backyard, like ;-)

ahemm...

I am thinking - like yourself, hopefully - the general condition of those
frames are the story - along with the patchy (spotted) hatchings amongst
dead pupae - an indication this colony may have been doomed from
the start. I note nobody has commented on the dead pupae nor the scorch
markings on some of the frames. Looking at two of the three frames the
evidence suggests this is a typical "frame of brood plus frame of stores and
three of foundation" type nucleus build, so typical of nucleus retailers.

As it has been read some advocate scorching as a disease control it certainly
is worth discussion as to from where those two frames originated.
For the OP I cannot say resetting the woodware in any form is a way
forward as initial work in frame inspections would have made the situation clearer now.
So now all that is left is speculation, and going forward on that is indeed irresponsible
for any Queensland beekeeper and as you(YB) put, NSW also.

Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2017, 08:14:10 pm »
Bill, I thought about scorching but it is so hard to tell in a photo so I did not jump to that conclusion.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2017, 10:05:40 pm »
Bill, I thought about scorching but it is so hard to tell in a photo
so I did not jump to that conclusion.

And so there is the why I suggested discussion... meaning the OP with
the nucleus supplier. Only that person would know.
My leap to the conclusion posted is based on the general condition... dead
brood placement on all frames included. Notably those drone cells on the seed
frame and the drawn frame, unusual for a nucleus going into "winter"
anywhere. As Sgt. Schultz would say... "verrrry innahrestink".

Around here a developed nucleus as that described goes for around $250, no
reurn for credit after 7 days. Despite the slack performance by the OP
in managing the investment I am sure a supplier would answer the questions
raised here in the thread, if asked.

Bill

Offline yantabulla

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2017, 05:20:37 pm »
Thanks Bill,  I don't have many yellow squares on my profile so I know very little however my advice is to not reuse those frames.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2017, 01:45:50 am »
Thanks Bill,  I don't have many yellow squares on my profile so I know
very little however my advice is to not reuse those frames.

Assuming Russ posted initially to gather information I trust enough
has been aired for an approach to the supplier seeking an onsite
explanation and prescribed way forward.
Should be a no-brainer option as Russ trusts the seller.

Them yella tickets?
Look at it this way... you/we lose little walkin' into 40 knots of breeze, eh? ;-D

Bill

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2017, 10:23:17 am »
> None of you can be sure that AFB is not present.

If you have any evidence whatsoever (scale, dead larvae etc.) you can do a holst milk test and answer the question definitively.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#afb

Short version of the holst milk test.  Mix some nonfat dry milk to the directions on the package.  Put it in a small jar under your arm to get it close to body temperature.  Add the scale, goo or larvae to the milk.  The white will precipitate out of the milk if it is AFB.  It will not if it is not AFB.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline gww

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2017, 02:11:34 pm »
Michael
Do you know how some test honey for AFB?
Thanks
gww

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2017, 04:04:42 pm »
>Do you know how some test honey for AFB?

I don't.  I would guess they examine it under a microscope for AFB spores.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2017, 05:37:40 pm »
They might put it in a dish and grow the spores.
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Offline gww

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2017, 05:48:35 pm »
Thanks for the answer.  I will look it up some day.  I had seen some that said they spot check thier honey and should have ask but wasn't thinking.  I was just wondering it the little test kits or milk test would work.  It was just curiosity.
Thanks
gww

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2017, 09:38:19 am »
>I was just wondering it the little test kits or milk test would work.

I don't know.  I doubt it.  In the case of larvae or scale you are testing for an enzyme produced by the bacteria in its active state.  In the case of honey I think you are testing for spores.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Offline UrbisAgricola

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Re: Lost Nuc, why?
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2017, 12:27:43 pm »
My two cents:  I agree with everybody on reusing old equipment. Generally speaking I would heartily agree. In this context, considering the location and the amount of equipment we are talking here (and old stuff at that), like yantabulla, I would burn without delay.  We most got rid of AFB based on zero tolerance.  Also, there is something to be said for getting rid of old black comb anyway.  When you buy a nuc from someone, what did he use to make it?  Chances are some old crap on it's way out. 

Again, just my two cents and what I would do. 
We all do better when we all do better.