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Author Topic: Texas church shooting  (Read 4683 times)

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2017, 01:37:43 pm »
Brian,
When you witness a mass murder like this and the perpetrator is leaving with his weapons and ammunition and you are armed do, you really think you should let him leave? Do you really think he is just going to go home to watch TV? He knows his life is over. You know he is going to find more targets. Would you still say that if your family was among his next set of targets?
Jim

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2017, 02:05:48 pm »
>Completely false Mike many people die taking legal drugs.  But this has no bearing on what I said.

It has every bearing.  If you can't keep something away from people that is illegal and that something is needed in constant supply (drugs), how will you control something that a criminal only needs once (a gun)?

Your idea that a gun seldom helps defend anyone is simply not true.  I have had to pull a gun to defend myself four times so far in my life.  I've never had to fire it.  I've always called the police.  They have never filed a report that I know of.  How many times does this happen every day?  I would guess thousands.  How many times does it happen in states where people don't dare call the police?  Gathering statistics on how many crimes are prevented directly every year is already impossible.  Gathering statistics on how much of a deterrent it is that people MIGHT have a gun is also impossible, but I guarantee everywhere I've lived that knowledge that the homeowner is LIKELY to be armed has an affect on peoples thinking.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2017, 02:05:50 pm »
The law says take the legal drugs only when prescribed and then only according to label and doctor's instructions.
If those laws were followed, few if any deaths would happen.
You don't know much about prescription drugs and you haven't ever read the side effects
Quote
You are also wrong about when he shoot the bad guy.

""Stephen Willeford, 55, confronted gunman Devin Patrick Kelley, 26, when he was leaving First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs, wounding him, before he and Johnnie Langendorff, 27, chased him in a car after he fled.""
I may be wrong about Stephen Willeford because I cannot find the interview where he said he shot him twice in pursuit.  It could be fake news where one scene was shown out of sequence.
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Offline gww

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2017, 02:21:59 pm »
I will just say that I would hope I would have the guts to do what the guy that stopped the texas gunman did.  I would hope that I would do it even if it ment going to jail or dieing.  I haven't done anything like that in my life.  Hope I never have too but if put in such a situation, I pray that I could respond as well.  It was the right thing to do.  If they ever make a law against doing such a correct thing, it is the law that would need changed, not a heros action.

As an off subject, the last ladie to stop a church shooting in a heroic manner was fired because after saving them all she came out and said she was a lesbian.  Talk about twist of faith.  I just say on her too.  She can be a lesbian and she can be with out a job but they can not take away that one time in her life, she was also a hero.

I may not have the guts when called to be a hero (hope I do though) but I was watching one of my grandkids a couple of days and kinda stuck in the house and I got hooked on watching real life heros on you tube and some people are just amazing.  There is no doubt that whatever flaws all of us have, that for one time, the guy in texas who confronted a mass murderer, he was a hero.

The world is made a little better by the heros in it.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2017, 02:22:53 pm »
Quote
I may be wrong about Stephen Willeford because I cannot find the interview where he said he shot him twice in pursuit.
You are wrong.  Not that it matters because any time he shot the guy would have been OK.  Remeber, the bad guy called his father after he crashed and said he'd been shot and then he shot himself.

He was shot twice exiting the church.  He was able to get in his car and drive off with the two good guys following him.  When he crashed, they kept the weapon on him until the police arrived, but by then he was dead by his own hand. 

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline herbhome

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2017, 02:31:53 pm »
Mike,

You are spot on. Prohibition didn't stop alcohol use. My dry county has a ridiculous amount of DWIs and drunken wrecks. Several years ago, Little Rock was the murder capital of the US, primarily driven by 14-15 yo.s fighting over crack turf. They got their guns from the same place they got the crack.

Hint: Not a licensed gun dealer and not a pharmacy. :smile:
Neill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2017, 02:32:59 pm »
>Completely false Mike many people die taking legal drugs.  But this has no bearing on what I said.

It has every bearing.  If you can't keep something away from people that is illegal and that something is needed in constant supply (drugs), how will you control something that a criminal only needs once (a gun)?

Your idea that a gun seldom helps defend anyone is simply not true.

Is that my idea?  I don't think it is.  I understand full well what you are saying about self defense and the effect of just owning a gun whether you have bullets for it or not.  Maybe you can relate to a psychiatric nutcase with a semi automatic weapon and you with a hand gun taking you by surprise.  You don't stand a chance.

You will not stop all fatalities with any gun legislation nor will you stop all criminal activity with a concealed carry permit.  Neither is possible.  However there is evidence that you can curb mass shootings with legislation and in fact we do have some.  We are about to get a lot more.  Unfortunately I think it is going to be the wrong legislation because it will be based on fear and not what is effective.

FWI there is a bolt action rifle 4 ft away from my pillow at night.  I don't expect anyone that I should point it at will ask if it is loaded.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2017, 03:32:15 pm »
IMHO, an unloaded firearm makes a pretty good boat anchor, an okay hammer but a lousy deterrent against a determined criminal.  If you are going to point an unloaded weapon at an intruder with a gun or knife, I just hope your life insrance pays real well.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline kathyp

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2017, 03:38:29 pm »
Quote
If you are going to point an unloaded weapon at an intruder with a gun or knife, I just hope your life insrance pays real well.

First lesson my father taught me...don't point it if you are not willing to use it. 

Can't use it if it's not loaded! 

Second lesson was don't carry if you don't believe you can use it.  It's not for scaring people...although if it does that and you don't have to use it, so much the better.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2017, 03:58:55 pm »
Quote
If you are going to point an unloaded weapon at an intruder with a gun or knife, I just hope your life insrance pays real well.

First lesson my father taught me...don't point it if you are not willing to use it. 

Can't use it if it's not loaded! 

Second lesson was don't carry if you don't believe you can use it.  It's not for scaring people...although if it does that and you don't have to use it, so much the better.

I think your father taught me about guns, too.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline iddee

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2017, 05:51:00 pm »
""You don't know much about prescription drugs and you haven't ever read the side effects""

I imagine I know a lot more about drugs than you think I do, and probably a lot more than you know.
Deadly side effects?? What are the odds, maybe one in a million or less?
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2017, 06:07:44 pm »
>  Maybe you can relate to a psychiatric nutcase with a semi automatic weapon and you with a hand gun taking you by surprise.  You don't stand a chance.

Actually I would stand a VERY good chance, especially if he's busy shooting someone else for the first few seconds and if I were in that position I would take that chance.  It's only the surprise that is the issue.  I have no use for a semi automatic.  An accurate gun is the real issue and someone who knows how to use it.  I can easily hit a half dollar at 30 feet with a revolver.  We used to shoot 12 gauge shotgun shells with our .357s at 200 yards and hit them about a third of the time.  Shooting prone, of course.  The semi auto does nothing to make the gun any more deadly.  I can hit a bullseye three times in less than 3 seconds at 100 to 200 yards with a bolt action.  I doubt I can do any better with a semi-auto.  You still have to aim.  Throwing a lot of bullets down range does not make a gun more deadly.  You still have to hit the targets.
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Offline gww

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2017, 07:30:12 pm »
I like the simi-autos.  Except for the 22 cal and some of the old m-1s, they are easier to load and unload.  Of course I like the single shot but it is not my choice, just better then nothing.  Some just love the double barrel but I always kinda wondered why.  The bolt is ok.  I can not shoot as good as michael and miss pretty often expecially with hot loaded revolver loads.  I can't afford to shoot what it would be to be a natural and wasn't born with pure talant like some of my cousens. 

If I were in a situation like we are talking about, I would rather have the chance even though I might lose rather then no chance at all.  I have killed enough animals to know that just because they are shot, it does not mean that they fall right where you shot them every time.  So my view is that even if I lost the battle for myself, I might still win the war of good against evil.

You might point to the one time it didn't help or even went badly but for the guy it did go good for, he was better having a gun then not.  So, since life is not risk free, I retain the right to decide which risk I am comfortable with.  I keep a loaded gun right by my bed.  I don't do it cause I believe it garrentees anything.  I might sleep through it while a robber gets it out or a robber might just shoot me in bed before I know he is there.  I like the ideal that if it doesn't kill me that I can fight back and cause some harm of my own.

I am not tough, a good shot or very mean.  I don't want to live in a world where the stongest can do what they want.  I at least want some chance since every one is not good even if it is just a small chance.
Cheers
gww

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2017, 08:25:26 pm »
Gww, why do you miss more often with a hot load?  There's no recoil until the projectile leaves the barrel, so you may be flinching in expectation of the recoil. 

My choice of a weapon to keep beside my bed is my Glock .40 caliber with a Crimson Trace laser sight and, because an intruder would be in my home, I'd put the red dot somewhere in the top part of the head.  The guy in the church shooting may have been wearing body armor, so a head shot would have ended the discussion right there. 

Ace, I assume when you refer to a semiautomatic, you're talking about a long gun.  A long gun takes longer to move around into a new firing position, so a handgun, revolver or semiautomatic, is at an advantage at close range.  But my number one choice for a defensive weapon would be a pump-action 12-gauge shotgun loaded with number 4 buckshot and an extended magazine.  After going through an FBI short course many years ago, I'm convinced a perpetrator would have no place to hide.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2017, 08:53:08 pm »
But my number one choice for a defensive weapon would be a pump-action 12-gauge shotgun loaded with number 4 buckshot and an extended magazine.
That would be mine too.  Talking about your shooting skills means nothing when lead is flying at you.
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Offline gww

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2017, 09:12:34 pm »
Dallas
It could be me though when I load 44 special loads I do better.  It could also be powder burn after leaving the barrel. (unburnt powder).  I do think I hit better with a 22 cal at all times and so it could be me.  I used to shoot all the time till I got cheep but never did get great with the short gun.  I am not great with the long gun but still get some meat in the fridge.  Could be attitude.  I take a shot gun and not a 22 when I squirl or rabbit hunt.

I do know guys that reload necked down rifle bullets and they like them hot but only as hot as they can get thier best gropings.  It all makes a differrance.  Myself, I only load the strait brass shells (mostly 44 mag or special).  I admit that I haven't loaded any for about the last ten years though.  I have some unique powder and some 2400 powder and about 8oo caps but just can't make myself buy more bullets and have never got into the casting.  I found back when I could buy 50 rounds of factory loads for $14 to $17 that it was still costing me $10.50 to load 50 rounds and that was me reusing the brass.  I have just been buying the little I use now days and just trying to not shoot much.  I like shooting but oh well.  It is rifle season right now but I am about tagged out and have meat in the frige and so got done pretty early so far this year.  It is not always this easy.  Pure meat hunter.  If I get horns, I brag like everyone else but must admit that I am almost dissapointed when I kill a big buck cause they have more meat but sometimes are a little rank and tough.  I don't live in one of those places where you can sit and not shoot and have ten deer go by.  My area is more like your get a few chances a year if you hunt pretty hard.

I switched from 30-06 to 308 this year.  Both are remington 742 simi-autos and I am really likeing the 308.

I have had bolts but some of it is sentamental value.  I grew up with the 742s and so I just love them.  I feel comfortable with them and they are my favorite probly cause most like what they are familure with.
My gun by my bed is just a little 22 cal ruger that was made while ruger was alive.  It was the prototype of the ruger mark 2.  I did have an old mouser 32 cal but lost it to a house robbery when I was living in indiana and came back to Mo for a couple of weeks.  All my stuff is old stuff.
Cheers
gww
gww

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2017, 09:27:17 pm »
Finally, we agree on something other than beekeeping, Ace. 

If the SHTF, and your life is on the line, along with the lives of others, go for the thing that does the job.  Besides, I like the psychological effect of the sound of racking the slide of a pump-action shotgun.  It would strike terror in the heart of most any person, and just might send them running into the night without any further conversation. 

I'm a fairly decent shot with rifle or pistol, having competed some, but when my life is on the line, I want a shotgun in my hands.  I've been tempted to get a Taurus Judge, a pistol that shoots .45 long Colt pistol ammo or .410 bore shotshell ammo.  Could be one heck of a defensive weapon at close range.

"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline kathyp

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2017, 09:28:52 pm »
I always figured that you were best protected using whatever you were most comfortable using.  I don't think you can beat a shotgun for home protection because you don't have to put on your glasses, worry that you are going to shoot through a wall, or even aim well.  That said, I keep a handgun by the bed and I picked up a Springfield 9mm for CC that is a nice fit.  I am not fond of the 9, but it was so comfortable in hand that I got it anyway.  Double stack so if the first few rounds don't do it, the next few ought to   :grin:

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2017, 09:39:32 pm »
gww I could take deer with a billy club in my back yard.  Deer are plentiful and they are so complacent around the city.
Tomorrow I am going to pick up our pig from the butcher that just got arrested for selling deer meat.  You can butcher deer in this state for a price but you can't sell it.  We feed deer meat to the dogs.  It is organic!  Lots of people want to kill it but few want to eat it.  No doubt you could feed the homeless in the big apple with deer meat.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Texas church shooting
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2017, 09:48:39 pm »
GWW, the Ruger is a nice little gun.  Ruger turns out a lot of good guns, in fact.  And the .22 is not a bad choice, because, as Kathy says, you are comfortable with it.

I had a friend a long time age who hand-loaded .44 magnum loads so that they were  churning out about 50,000 psi.  Besides shortening the life of his S&W model 29, it was really painful to shoot a few rounds out of his gun.  I could never see the point of disabling your hand in order to send a bullet out of the barrel just a little bit faster.  And I had to use a mallet or something to get the caes out of the cylinder after firing his pistol.  Makes no sense to me.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944