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Author Topic: The Feds and disasters  (Read 5378 times)

Offline Acebird

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2017, 05:58:41 pm »
Better than nothing but I feel term limit period.  The idea is to eliminate a political carrier.  Lobbying should be just plain outlawed.  Lobbyist do not serve the country and are a major problem in government.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2017, 08:19:25 pm »
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Lobbying should be just plain outlawed.  Lobbyist do not serve the country and are a major problem in government.

I agree with a time between leaving government and being a lobbyist.  Lobbyists are less that problem than the reason that they exist.  If the federal government was staying in its constitutional box, what would people lobby the government about?  Lobbying exists for the same reason crony capitalism exists.  regulations, taxes, and other govnerment meddling in things they should not be in. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2017, 09:51:12 pm »
Better than nothing but I feel term limit period.  The idea is to eliminate a political carrier.  Lobbying should be just plain outlawed.  Lobbyist do not serve the country and are a major problem in government.
It has been a little while since I read the constitution but I remember something in the first amendment about the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Outlawing lobbying is unconstitutional and it should be unconstitutional. Kathy is absolutely correct. If the government was put back in its constitutional box there would be nothing to lobby.

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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

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Offline Psparr

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2017, 10:55:54 pm »
Ace who do you think wrote the ACA? It surely wasn't the legislators. Heck Nancy said they had to pass it to find out what was in it.

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2017, 05:41:49 am »
Ace who do you think wrote the ACA? It surely wasn't the legislators. Heck Nancy said they had to pass it to find out what was in it.
Yeah... The video of her saying that is scary... I can't decide what is worse, the fact that she is that dumb and got elected or that she was reelected. It doesn't say much for the overall intelligence of her district.

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All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Acebird

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2017, 09:30:44 am »
Ace who do you think wrote the ACA? It surely wasn't the legislators. Heck Nancy said they had to pass it to find out what was in it.
Predominately insurance companies.  Corporate America for the benefit of Corporate America.  Single payer cuts them out.
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Offline Psparr

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2017, 10:54:19 am »
Who pays for single payer?

Offline kathyp

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2017, 11:12:22 am »
Lol.  1/2 of the country still paying federal taxes.  Then I ran across this, which is something that impacts all 1st world countries.  I know it's an issue in Japan.  Russia was paying people to have kids for awhile.  Don't know if they still are.

http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/14883-finland-s-low-birth-rate-is-a-concern-admits-new-minister-of-family-affairs.html
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2017, 01:45:09 pm »
Russia was paying people to have kids for awhile.
Doesn't a welfare check go up when the family grows?
Supposing minimum wage was considerably more than a welfare check.  Do you think welfare would decrease and the number of people paying fed tax would increase?
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Offline kathyp

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2017, 02:17:48 pm »
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Doesn't a welfare check go up when the family grows?

I am not familiar with the Russian welfare system. 

Quote
Supposing minimum wage was considerably more than a welfare check.  Do you think welfare would decrease and the number of people paying fed tax would increase?

So you want to force business to pay more than market wages so the government might be able to collect more tax?  Where does that money come from? 

do you realize a family of 4 can make over 50,000 dollars and get earned income credit of over 5000 dollars?  I use earned income credit rather than who pays taxes because if you are making 50,000 dollars and getting earned income credit, you are not paying federal taxes. That's not the only federal tax credit you can get if you have kids so you can easily get back more than you would have paid in the first place.

You want business to bring every family of 4 past the 50,000 dollar range so that the feds can collect a few dollars tax from them??
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2017, 02:20:49 pm »

Doesn't a welfare check go up when the family grows?
Supposing minimum wage was considerably more than a welfare check.  Do you think welfare would decrease and the number of people paying fed tax would increase?

The problem with increasing the minimum wage is that it does not mean that everybody will get that new minimum wage. Only the people that are kept will get the new minimum wage. So when all of the low income people lose their jobs because employers can't afford to pay them the new minimum wage the number of people on welfare will go up.

I have a better supposition... Allow employees and employers negotiate between themselves how much money an employer should pay an employee and eliminate the minimum wage completely. And eliminate welfare at the same time. Give people an incentive to work rather than an incentive to be a leech.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2017, 02:26:04 pm »
I'd say put a time limit on welfare.  A lot of people have to go on welfare because of something they could not foresee, but three generations on welfare is stupid, and there are such.  I think Bill Clinton tried to limit welfare, but it didn't end up working out.
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Offline gww

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2017, 02:29:53 pm »
eric
Quote
So when all of the low income people lose their jobs because employers can't afford to pay them the new minimum wage the number of people on welfare will go up.

Everybody tries to say this but it has not been proved out over the long run when past minimum wages were raised.  An arguement could be made to the contrary just by looking at what happened from the thirties to the 70s when the unions started to become successful in raising wages.  The raises fed off of each other and the guy that got it bought more and so a new guy was hired.  That is why the median house size went from around 1000 square foot to 1500 square foot and familys had more then one car.  I hear the old lie, it was the same one after the depression saying there was no money but they found the money some how and everybodies standard improved.
JMHO
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gww

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2017, 02:38:53 pm »
What happened between the 1930s and 1970s was recovery from a crushing worldwide depression, a MAJOR war and recovery from that war and technological advances across the entire range of products.  The standard of living in the so-called first world countries improved whether or not the unions were involved.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2017, 02:42:55 pm »
eric
Quote
So when all of the low income people lose their jobs because employers can't afford to pay them the new minimum wage the number of people on welfare will go up.

Everybody tries to say this but it has not been proved out over the long run when past minimum wages were raised.  An arguement could be made to the contrary just by looking at what happened from the thirties to the 70s when the unions started to become successful in raising wages.  The raises fed off of each other and the guy that got it bought more and so a new guy was hired.  That is why the median house size went from around 1000 square foot to 1500 square foot and familys had more then one car.  I hear the old lie, it was the same one after the depression saying there was no money but they found the money some how and everybodies standard improved.
JMHO
Cheers
gww
In the thirties there was a major depression that was only made worse by progressive public programs.
What happened between the 1930s and 1970s was recovery from a crushing worldwide depression, a MAJOR war and recovery from that war and technological advances across the entire range of products.  The standard of living in the so-called first world countries improved whether or not the unions were involved.

I couldn't say it better myself... I love copy and paste
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline gww

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2017, 02:51:03 pm »
Dallas
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The standard of living in the so-called first world countries improved whether or not the unions were involved.

Maby maby not or maby a bit of both however the tired arguement that raising the min wage causes people to lose work has not been proved out in prior min wage raises. 

When looking at cause and effect, many things can have an effect and not missing any is a hard task even with the hardest of trying to see everything. 

Mccarthy thought he saw everythign.  He saw that china was backwards and could not be a modern war machine and so it should be easy to beat north korea.  He was not wrong but did leave out the part that china was willing to kill a million of its solders to make it too costly for what america would get.  So he was right but it wasn't the whole picture.  I did not use this to take this thread off subject but more to have some kind of example that shows that what should be common sense is sometimes not.
Cheers
gww

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2017, 02:53:22 pm »
A lot of the technological advances were the result of inventions spurred by the war itself.  We wouldn't have microwave ovens if radar hadn't been perfected to detect enemy planes and sips.  We wouldn't have the internet if scientists hadn't  needed a way to communicate with one another that was fast and secure (still fast, but no longer secure). Just two examples, but you get the idea. 

All these advances made goods less expensive to produce and less expensive to buy.  Economics is a bit more complex than raising the minimum wage and everybody benefits.

Everybody's hair is on fire about the $1,000 iPhone, but Motorola came out with the first cell phone (about the size of a brick and almost as heavy) with a price tag of $3,995 or so).
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2017, 02:57:28 pm »
Dallas
[quote[
Mccarthy thought he saw everythign.  He saw that china was backwards and could not be a modern war machine and so it should be easy to beat north korea.  He was not wrong but did leave out the part that china was willing to kill a million of its solders to make it too costly for what america would get.  So he was right but it wasn't the whole picture.  I did not use this to take this thread off subject but more to have some kind of example that shows that what should be common sense is sometimes not.
Cheers
gww
i think you mean MacArthur -- General Douglas MacArthur.  McCarthy was the senator that saw a Red under every bed.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2017, 03:06:23 pm »
North Korea invaded the South on its own, whether or not China encouraged it.  In fact it occupied most of the south before the UN forces pushed the North Koreans back almost to the Cinese border and the Chinese felt threatened.  Of course, Bejing feels a need to have North Korea as a buffer from the influence of South Korea.  I'm not sure MacArthur underestimated China as you suggest, gww, but no one should underestimate it today.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline kathyp

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Re: The Feds and disasters
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2017, 03:18:35 pm »
Quote
Everybody tries to say this but it has not been proved out over the long run when past minimum wages were raised.

The University of Washington study disagrees with you and you don't get more liberal than that school.  Various papers in CA have also looked at places that have raised min wage and they also disagree with you. 

Quote
The raises fed off of each other and the guy that got it bought more and so a new guy was hired.  That is why the median house size went from around 1000 square foot to 1500 square foot and familys had more then one car.  I hear the old lie, it was the same one after the depression saying there was no money but they found the money some how and everybodies standard improved.

Depends on how you define standard of living.  Rather than the 5000 dollar home, the same is now 500,000 dollars and both parents have to work to afford it.  Of course they find the money.  They charge more, and these days, they easily automate many jobs. 

Quote
McCarthy was the senator that saw a Red under every bed.

Turns out, he wasn't wrong. :wink:

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville