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Author Topic: Apiguard issues  (Read 2096 times)

Online kathyp

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2017, 10:43:42 pm »
I didn't get to read all of this, but there is something that has been brought up in some studies that I think is worth mentioning if it has not been. 

People are going "treatment free" and growing hives full of mites.  Those mites are spread around to all the rest of us no matter what we are doing or not doing.  I don't doubt that people have good intentions.  I don't doubt MB when he says he has been treatment free all these years.  I do have a problem with promoting this above all other things because for many people it does not work.  It may be their environment, or their experience level, or their neighbor down the road with hives full of mites, but the end result is the same.  Dead hives and disappointed beekeepers, especially if they are just getting started. 

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2017, 12:03:29 am »
Kathy
I don't dissagree with all you say except to add that it might not be the hive down the street that has the mites. It could be the swarm you lost of bees that have zero ability to handle mites due to being treated and so having no need for that trait, as being the supposed mite bomb.  The fact in the end is you have to find what it takes for you to be successful and that might be differrent for many reasons.  It could be weaker bees due to your areas forage or a differrent strain of virus.  One thing that is always left out is that even people that treat are haveing hives die.  In the end, all those things can not be controlled and so you have to find out what works for you.  I know a bunch of bee keepers at the bee club that I have went to a few meetings of (not many meeting though) lost their bees.  I did not do a poll but am pretty sure not all were treaters or treatment free.  I think the majority of them were new like me though.

I can point to a guy that has kept a small amount of hives for 20 years in the middle of all those bees that died that has not treated and has been sucessfull enough that he has not started treating.  Is he as sucessful as I hope I am going end up being?  I don't know but it was good enough for him and he did get two hundred of my dollars and so I guess it was good enough for me.  The others that lost bees are buying more and will keep doing that untill they find what works for them or quit.

I do get your point and my only point is, it would be good to know as much as you can about as many bee keepers practices as possible so you can make your best decision for your goals and then make what adjustments you need till you get it good enough for what you are happy enough with.  There is nothing wrong with whatever route someone takes and the risk that comes with that route.  I am no treating and I know my bees might die and if I am paying attention, I will still know more of what to watch for next time.  I do know there are a lot more ways then just mites to kill a hive.  I do think that when it comes down to blame of who is spreading what that the arguments that each side make like no presure and weak bees hurting the breeding pool or somebody giving your hive mite when you have weak bees that can't take mites.  Who gets to say who is wrong in that will never be settled and will never be controlled and so to your point, better to watch your own bees and dicide what you need to do. 
Cheers
gww
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 12:13:51 am by gww »

Online kathyp

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2017, 12:27:27 am »
Quote
Who gets to say who is wrong in that will never be settled and will never be controlled and so to your point, better to watch your own bees and dicide what you need to do. 

I agree.  I just approach this from the point of view of having owned various livestock over the years.  I treat my dog for fleas, my horses for worms, and they get their feet done by the farrier.  I don't have to do those things.  I could go "all natural" and they might be OK, but I have chosen to keep them and so I do my best to keep them healthy. 

You are right about lots of things killing hives.  Mine usually go to the yellowjackets.  I have yet to find a way to successfully deal with that!   :smile:
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2017, 12:42:03 am »
Kathy
Quote
Mine usually go to the yellowjackets.  I have yet to find a way to successfully deal with that!   

I have no doubt that I will get my turn.
Cheers
gww

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2017, 11:05:42 am »
>...but where did you acquire your knowledge in toxicology and host pathogen Relationships to make such statements as to imply the varroa problem is treatment caused and would have been extinguished 20 years ago if all had followed no treatment.

First, I would say I have heard at least three of the prominent entomologists who specialize in honey bees say the same during conversations with them except they said that 14 years ago.  Second, I think you'll find I have read a lot of the research.  Third I've been keeping bees 43 years and experimenting all of those years and I've been keeping them with no Varroa treatments for all but two of those years, though, of course, the Varroa did not arrive until 1987 and probably didn't get to me until the 1990s.  I have a pretty good practical grasp of bees and beekeeping

My knowledge of most things come from reading constantly, fitting what I read into relationships with other things to develop an overall picture of the world and having a very good memory.  In addition to my extensive reading across my entire life, I also have 16 hours of college chemistry and 16 hours of college biology, among other subjects.  I'm not claiming to be the world expert on anything, but I am far from uninformed.  My model of the world is flawed, as everyone's is, but it is pretty broad in scope and pretty deep on many topics.

>Also when you sell queens, you make no mention, none at all, not a word on "varroa resistance queens". I will buy your queens if you will guarantee me, "I will not worry about varroa for 14 years, or 15 years as stated on this thread."  Your price as mentioned, I will buy your queens IF guaranteed.

I have never claimed to have Varroa resistant queens.  I think more than half of the Varroa issue is due to enlarged cell size.  But I do see signs of VSH, though I do not try to breed for it.  I think genetic Varroa resistance is a combination of many traits which makes it both complex and simple--complex in the sense that trying to identify, test for and breed for each of those traits would be too much to keep track of--simple in the sense that you have merely to stop treating to be breeding for them.

http://bushfarms.com/beeswholebee.htm

What has become clear looking at the BIP statistics from year to year on losses is there is little difference between losses by people treating and people not treating.  This has now led to the "treaters" blaming the failure of treating on the "treatment free" beekeepers in order to avoid changing their model of the world to agree with reality.  They had to invent "mite bombs" in order to attempt to explain it.  Though I fail to understand why they believe this is a logical argument. 

>Michael, I find that such a dangerous absolutist statement for someone in your position to make.

I generally avoid them.  But frankly I got back to just beekeeping 14 years ago and have no issues with Varroa and I'm tired of talking about a problem I don't have.

> Randy runs well in excess of 400 colonies (maybe a 1000 ?), and rears 2500 queens each season, and yet even with those numbers hasn't yet 'cracked the problem'. 

Odd, he tried Honey Super Cell and mentioned that he couldn't kill that colony and it continued to not have any Varroa problems, yet he tries to credit it to something other than cell size.  As long as Randy continues to treat, he will not be able to breed bees that don't require treatment.  It's like trying to breed race horses but you never race them.

I never went through the "pain of the bond method".  I lost all of them and had nothing to breed from until I regressed the size.

http://bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm

>People are going "treatment free" and growing hives full of mites.  Those mites are spread around to all the rest of us no matter what we are doing or not doing.  I don't doubt that people have good intentions.  I don't doubt MB when he says he has been treatment free all these years.  I do have a problem with promoting this above all other things because for many people it does not work.  It may be their environment, or their experience level, or their neighbor down the road with hives full of mites, but the end result is the same.

And there is the "mite bomb" explanation...

I have heard various estimates on how many people are not treating for Varroa, some are very high percentages.  My experience with people I meet is that probably at least half of the beekeepers are not treating for Varroa and most of those are doing as well or better than those people who are treating.  The problem, though, will continue to be perpetuated as long as people perpetuate bees that require treatments and those drones are still mating out there, and as long as people continue to build "Varroa factories" of enlarged cells.

http://bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm

When someone doesn't treat and their bees survive they are told by the "treaters" that it's only a matter of time.  If they don't treat and their bees die, it's because they didn't treat.  If they treat and their bees die, they are told it was too late, or too soon, or they didn't treat often enough.  If they treat and they don't die, it's because they treated. 

Reality is, people who treat and people who don?t treat lose hives and sooner or later every hive will end up queenless after it swarms, or not build up enough for winter, or start too much brood too early and get caught on brood and "cold starve".

http://bushfarms.com/beeshardestthing.htm

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