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Author Topic: Apiguard issues  (Read 2095 times)

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2017, 12:35:05 pm »
GWW, van here.  I did not suggest OA, must have me confused with another.  I am careful to stay out of those treat or no treat issues.

If a beek treats with what ever, I say Blessings.
If a beek does not treat, I say Blessings also.
I will post info on treatments, "spinach 0.5% OA" but that is not to say I support.
Well being to all.

Offline little john

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2017, 12:45:36 pm »
I've used "nothing" with great results now for the last 14 years in a row...

I tried the route for 8 years..then everything crashed..I am sure it is something I did or did not do  :wink:

I have no reason to doubt what Michael says - but - that's in his location, and with his bees.

The problem with that kind of statement is that it carries the sub-text "treating mites is therefore unnecessary, period.", and should anyone blindly follow Michael's philosophy then they may well open their hives in the Spring to find a carpet of dead bees an inch thick lying on the bottom - as such 'advice' (which is what it effectively amounts to) doesn't carry any guarantee of a successful outcome.  Each person needs to form their own judgement, and act accordingly - it's the end result which ultimately matters.  Sorry to hear that events went pear-shaped for you.
LJ
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Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2017, 01:46:11 pm »
Van
Quote
If a beek treats with what ever, I say Blessings.
If a beek does not treat, I say Blessings also.
I will post info on treatments, "spinach 0.5% OA" but that is not to say I support.
Well being to all.
That is how I roll also, if it is working for the person doing the work, good on them.

lj
Quote
as such 'advice' (which is what it effectively amounts to) doesn't carry any guarantee of a successful outcome.  Each person needs to form their own judgement, and act accordingly - it's the end result which ultimately matters.  Sorry to hear that events went pear-shaped for you.

There is no advice that is a garrentee of no dead bees.  I agree that each have to find what works for them and even then when dealing with live things, there will still be a set back once in a while cause no one knows everything even though most are trying to know more then they do.  I don't know my future and so will be paying attention and trying my best but will not go so far as to claim more then but what I have seen so far.

I do have hope not to experiance what SC bees experianced and hope to adjust and survive if it does happen and can not brag of doing either yet.
Cheers
gww

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2017, 02:01:00 pm »
I have no reason to doubt what Michael says .....
The problem with that kind of statement is that it carries the sub-text "treating mites is therefore unnecessary, period.",  you.
LJ

I too have no reason to doubt what MB says... he has paid ihs dues and shares with others as a courtesy. I often point new folks to his pages for beginner things but I also fear when I do they may get overwhelmed and confused with some other things... a lot of the pages content is way above a new beeks understanding and it is easy to see why a newbee would think. put the bees in a box and walk away and they will be fine. The newbee loses sight of the aspect, as they read snips and pieces, that MB has a full system. And for it to work, if it will for you, all parts have to be tended too...

I think too many newbees think or have the false idea that treatment free is walk away and watch.... IMHO.... Just saying...
John 3:16

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2017, 02:53:31 pm »
"From 90 deg f.  To 31 and snow in two days."  Aroc, what a difference.  I had to let that soak in.  Seems impossible but I believe it.  I wonder the effect on the bees, fanning one day for cooling, and clustered the next for warmth.  These bees are incredible creatures, I adore the bees.

Offline Aroc

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2017, 03:49:29 pm »
"From 90 deg f.  To 31 and snow in two days."  Aroc, what a difference.  I had to let that soak in.  Seems impossible but I believe it.  I wonder the effect on the bees, fanning one day for cooling, and clustered the next for warmth.  These bees are incredible creatures, I adore the bees.

Yesterday the temperature was almost 90?. Today we woke up to rain. The high might get to 45?. Tomorrow we may see snow. It has definitely calmed the bees down anyway.

 I do wonder if it is necessary to do a second treatment in two weeks as recommended. Some folks seem to think that the single tray I put in may have been too much.
You are what you think.

Online sawdstmakr

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2017, 07:19:38 am »
The reason for the second treatment is to kill the mites that are protected under the capped brood.
Jim

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2017, 10:29:44 am »

 I do wonder if it is necessary to do a second treatment in two weeks as recommended. Some folks seem to think that the single tray I put in may have been too much.

Yes, as Jim said to catch the emerging bees with mites...if you are a treater..
John 3:16

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2017, 10:30:28 am »
>The problem with that kind of statement is that it carries the sub-text "treating mites is therefore unnecessary, period."

Let's not call it a sub-text.   I do not intend to imply it.  I intend to say it outright.  Treating mites is unnecessary.  Period. If we all had never treated we would have been past this 20 years ago. I was past it 15 years ago.  The only thing I do different now that has anything to do with Varroa is natural comb and smaller foundation.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2017, 10:53:23 am »
MB, with respect to your computer programming skills, I believe that was your work and probably very good at it: but where did you acquire your knowledge in toxicology and host pathogen Relationships to make such statements as to imply the varroa problem is treatment caused and would have been extinguished 20 years ago if all had followed no treatment.

Also when you sell queens, you make no mention, none at all, not a word on "varroa resistance queens". I will buy your queens if you will guarantee me, "I will not worry about varroa for 14 years, or 15 years as stated on this thread."  Your price as mentioned, I will buy your queens IF guaranteed.
MB, this with respect to your precious contributions to Beemaster, speaking, and authorship.  Thank you, Sir.
Blessings

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2017, 12:01:40 pm »
Van
Quote
"I will not worry about varroa for 14 years, or 15 years as stated on this thread."  Your price as mentioned, I will buy your queens IF guaranteed.

This is kind of a low blow.  How many other queen sellers will give you a garantee that their queens won't swarm, that they will live 7 years, that they will make your hive produce 200lbs, that they will not get EFB or chalk brood, that they won't be super ceeded by the bees?  You either have to believe that michael is not lying that he is treatment free and base your decision to purchace or think he is lying and so you don't want to purchase.  Why does he get the privilage of being held to a higher standard then every other queen maker out there and every other reason to buy a queen from some one.  I know ace has advised me that swarm queens need replaced cause they are more prone to swarm.  How many guys out there are going to give the kind of garantee you are asking for that if I buy their bees, my hive won't swarm.

I like you brother but that is unreasonable.
Cheers
gww

Offline little john

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2017, 12:33:25 pm »
I intend to say it outright.  Treating mites is unnecessary.  Period. If we all had never treated we would have been past this 20 years ago. I was past it 15 years ago.


Michael, I find that such a dangerous absolutist statement for someone in your position to make.

By 'your position' I mean that certain beekeepers have acquired what could be described as 'Guru status' within the beekeeping community. Several names immediately some to mind: Sam Comfort, Michael Palmer, Kirk Webster ... and your own.  I'm sure there are many others - my apologises to them for omission.

With this status comes responsibilities, because there will be many beginners hanging onto your every word, and following what they consider as wise and sensible advice, to the letter.

There are those who keep hundreds of colonies, and can afford to lose a fair number of them in their search for Varroa-resistant/tolerant behaviour.  But what of our beginner, with perhaps just one or two colonies in their back-garden ?  What chance does such a person realistically have of achieving Varroa-tolerance this year, or next year ?  I'd say next to zero. And so our trusting tyro stands a very high chance of opening a hive full of dead bees come the spring.

Of course such a person could 'invest' their money by purchasing a VSH queen - but will those characteristics be passed onto other colonies in due course ?  Personally, I'm far too cynical of such claims to find out for myself, but that's not what Randy Oliver has found. http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-varroa-problem-part-7/

Now to put things in some perspective, Randy runs well in excess of 400 colonies (maybe a 1000 ?), and rears 2500 queens each season, and yet even with those numbers hasn't yet 'cracked the problem'.  So what chance does a back-garden beekeeper realistically have ?

I'll pull a quote from that webpage which pretty-much sums-up my own view of the situation:
Quote
We beekeepers need to move beyond varroa, and turn varroa management over to our bees. Breeding for mite resistance is indisputably the long term solution to The Varroa Problem. My half-assed breeding efforts to date have shown some success, but I?m as yet unable to dispense with mite management. It?s clearly time to step up my game.

There are others successfully keeping bees without needing mite treatments, and I want to be there too (but without going through the pain and cost of the Bond method). Perhaps by sharing my trials and tribulations in attempting to breed for mite resistance, I can further our collective progress.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline little john

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2017, 12:43:04 pm »
Van
Quote
"I will not worry about varroa for 14 years, or 15 years as stated on this thread."  Your price as mentioned, I will buy your queens IF guaranteed.

This is kind of a low blow.  How many other queen sellers will give you a garantee ...

If you buy a Carni or Italian Breeder - i.e. bees claimed to have specific genetic qualities - you have the right to expect a guarantee that what you receive will meet the sales pitch - or your money refunded. If a queen is being sold as having VSH qualities - why should that characteristic not also be guaranteed?
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2017, 01:08:09 pm »
I intend to say it outright.  Treating mites is unnecessary.  Period. If we all had never treated we would have been past this 20 years ago. I was past it 15 years ago.


Michael, I find that such a dangerous absolutist statement for someone in your position to make.

By 'your position' I mean that certain beekeepers have acquired what could be described as 'Guru status' within the beekeeping community. Several names immediately some to mind: Sam Comfort, Michael Palmer, Kirk Webster ... and your own.  I'm sure there are many others - my apologises to them for omission.

With this status comes responsibilities, because there will be many beginners hanging onto your every word, and following what they consider as wise and sensible advice, to the letter.

There are those who keep hundreds of colonies, and can afford to lose a fair number of them in their search for Varroa-resistant/tolerant behaviour.  But what of our beginner, with perhaps just one or two colonies in their back-garden ?  What chance does such a person realistically have of achieving Varroa-tolerance this year, or next year ?  I'd say next to zero. And so our trusting tyro stands a very high chance of opening a hive full of dead bees
LJ
[/quote]

Agreed.... my same sentiments in reply #23
John 3:16

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2017, 02:10:53 pm »
Lj
Quote
"I will not worry about varroa for 14 years, or 15 years as stated on this thread."  Your price as mentioned, I will buy your queens IF guaranteed.




This is kind of a low blow.  How many other queen sellers will give you a garantee ...



If you buy a Carni or Italian Breeder - i.e. bees claimed to have specific genetic qualities - you have the right to expect a guarantee that what you receive will meet the sales pitch - or your money refunded. If a queen is being sold as having VSH qualities - why should that characteristic not also be guaranteed?
LJ

You know it is differrent for a queen to have vsh qualitys then it is to demand that those vsh qualities garantee that bee have no issues for the next 15 years.  If the queen gets super ceeded, those qualities won't last one year. Also When you buy that queen the guy might say that his bees are keeping mites below a 1 percent mite threshold but you show me one that will give you a garantee that it will keep all your bees at that level.  You and I both know that you will not get that even from someone who is proud of their vsh bees and that was what van was asking for, to be garrenteed he would not have mite issues for 15 years.  It is splitting hairs to expect what could never and is never given by any queen seller.  I had not issue with vans questioning of michael being so sure of every one never treating and how we would be furthure along, Partly because it is never going to happen that every one keeps bees the same way anyway.  It is still wrong wether the vsh or the treatment free bees to expect anyone is going to garentee for said time that you are going to have said mileage and it can not hold that one has to meet that expectation and is bad even though no one else has to meet it.  I stand by the ideal that you either have to believe michael is telling the truth on his milage and decide if that will help you or say he is not telling the truth and then you don't have to buy.

I agree with you that it should be no differrent then a queen seller selling vsh and the same expectations should be expected from both that thier bees have such traits which will be proven in their success in thier own yards if you have any doubt.
Cheers
gww

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2017, 02:53:38 pm »
GWW, thank you sir for your comments.  I have to agree with you fella and I appreciate your thoughts. I was trying to make a point, a much larger issue is at large.

My point, one says "treat your bees or you are the problem"  yet in contrast another says "don't treat your bees or you are the problem."  These kinds of statements are opinion and arguable.  I can argue for each side as both have merit.  Scientist are trying to evolve a honey bee that requires no treatment, I am included but I need more time.  I am evaluating results daily, yes every day on my small scale genetic quest that better the bee health with my 20 hives.  Just a small drop I am in a rain forest of expertise.  It's Ok to laugh, I appreciate humor.  But I intend to evolve a hygienic honey bee that is traceable by color of the bee.

Currently I have a few hygienic hives but the genetic qualities are lost each year due to the fact I cannot determine which drones carry the genes because they all look alike.  To simplify, I have evolved a yellow/brown drone(s) with not a trace of black easily distinguishable with the naked eye from typical drones.  Step one complete, step 2 to isolate a hygenic yellow drone and breed to my red/yellow hygenic queens,,,, next spring.

Notice I have never stated to treat or not to.  I try to provide accurate information when a question is ask of either camp. 

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2017, 06:07:18 pm »
Van
My belief runs along this line.  I don't know.  That being said, I also don't discount anything others are doing that is working for them.  It is not in me to say that the guy who treats and is happy is wrong cause he put up his money to play the game.  I am unwilling to say all the small guys (and some big) who are running hives and have not treated are all liers.  I believe them.  I don't know what will work for me and make me happy.  I am putting my money in the game though.  There is no one out there that could not do something better then what they are doing now.  So fingers can always be pointed.  I figure if the guy is doing it is happy enough to keep doing it then it must work good enough.  I am not treating and I don't know what the future is going to hold.  I did not make that decission as a pureist but just that it is what I am going to do untill I change.  I am not going to be made to feel bad about anything I am doing unless it is the bees that give me that feeling and not peoples opinions.  I don't say this as a smarty but more as I have eyes and they see things to chose from to see if they will work for me.

I am smart enough to know that no matter what I believe that other people are going to do what they want regaurdless of my belief.  So why waste to much effort trying to control them, I will work on me.

People pretty much keep bees for what they can get from them and when they get to the point that they feel they are getting enough, all the arguement in the world is not going to make them do more then they want.

It is all good and my goal is not to shut down conversations of what people are doing till they are only doing what I am doing.  I want to hear what everyone is doing and how it is working so that I can steal those parts that I think will help for myself.  I want to hear it all.
Cheers
gww

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2017, 07:09:00 pm »
Yes Sir, GWW, wise words.  If you don't treat, well then more power to you.  I realize not treating can lead to resolve by natural selection.  However I have to also Bless the Beek that treats for obivious reasons.

This mite verses bee,,,,  well the general research is not new to me.  My adult life was spent researching bacteria that cause human disease.  I guarantee you have personally benefited from my contributions but this is beyond the scope of this thread.  I have published half dozen scientific papers in FEMS and other journals.  I understand bacterial disease.  Now mites and bees is a bit out of my league but the basis of host pathogen relationship is/was my life study.  Very similar to me, (antibiotics) treatment verses non treatment.  If we treat, we risk creating antibiotic resistance organisms and if we don't treat,,,,,,  So I have perceived both sides for most of my life.  Important to put the facts out there and let beeks decide for themselves.
Blessings

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2017, 07:51:14 pm »
Van
I know I am a dummy.  I hope this interaction has an enjoyment factor cause I have enjoyed yours and others responces.
Cheers
gww
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 09:40:16 pm by gww »

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2017, 08:49:16 pm »
GWW: Sir this thread is a delight, from sawdust(Jim) to Lil John and all in between.

One thing, very important you understand:: "dummy"???  I disagree, you write to well to be a dummy.  Ponder this: IQ is something a person is born with.  The smartest man I ever met had an eight grade education.  Some of the dummist people I have ever known earn a PhD.  Education means a person has been to a school and has nothing to do with being smart.  Being educated and being smart or two different things.  A person is naturally born with one(smart)  the other is acquired(education.)
Blessings