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Author Topic: Apiguard issues  (Read 2089 times)

Offline Aroc

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Apiguard issues
« on: September 13, 2017, 12:01:17 pm »
 Used Apivar last year with good results.

 Elected to use Apiguard this year to rotate treatments.

WOW......

 To make a long story short put in the pre-measured tray as described. Daytime temperatures are mid-80s. Nighttime temperatures are low 50s.

 These are extremely angry off. A lot of bearding the last three days. Looks like robbing but I'm pretty sure that's not it. This behavior has been noted as somewhat normal.

 I'm a bit concerned that this might continue. Very aggressive right now. Bees start attacking us when we are about 50 feet from hive. Wife was stung this morning and she didn't really do anything.

 Any thoughts?

Another tray is supposed to be placed in two weeks. Is it advisable to forgo this? Or should we proceed as directed?
You are what you think.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 01:15:15 pm »
Cheers, my main concern is aggressive bees, "wife was stung."  There are many reasons a hive can turn defensive.  I would stop treatment, make a change that is and determine if the bees act less defensive.  Bees that are being robbed can be very defensive, night raiders such as coons or skunks can cause defensive behavior.  At the moment, we don't know the precise reason for defensive behavior.  Try stopping the treatment and monitor from there.

I don't tolerate defensive behavior with my bees, cause is determined and remedy is employed.  Often queens are replaced.  If bees are being robbed, which is actually happening in my apiry now, then bees are moved or combined with stronger hives.  The alpha (strongest, gentlest)queen is maintained if I combine hives, the beta queen (lessor) is removed and currently in my incubator.
Blessings

Offline Aroc

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 01:54:21 pm »
Haven't been aggressive all year until I put in the Apiguard.  I have another hive I'm using Apivar in an everything is normal.  The bearding/aggressive behavior is only the hives I place the Apiguard in.

You are what you think.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2017, 02:30:55 pm »
Aroc, gentle spring time bees can turn defensive during a dearth and especially become more defensive when the hive is full of honey.

In late summer and Fall, I always wear a bee suit just as precaution.  I do notice a difference in behavior of my bees in the Spring verses late summer and Fall.  Bees are naturally more defensive when hives are full of honey.

Just a note, I do have hives that are incredibly gentle.  Even in Fall when I open a hive, most of my bees remain on the comb as inspecting in process, they do not fly, they are not nervous, rather they remain calm.  Some of my hives, a few, will act nervous when inspected.  They will be requeened in the Spring.  One of my desired traits is bees that remain calm on comb when I am inspecting.  One of several criteria when I am selecting for a production queen.

In case you are wondering, I do not sell queens, I give them away.  The locals, folks within a hundred miles take all the queens that I can raise.  I TRY to raise calm, varroa resistant, honey producers.
Blessings

Offline Aroc

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 03:13:11 pm »
What I am seeing is related to Apiguard.  I can almost guarantee it.  It happened within 6 hours of treatment and only in the two hives I treated.
You are what you think.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 03:50:36 pm »
I believe you.
Blessings

Offline kathyp

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 07:55:04 pm »
I have used Apiguard for years.  They will be a little agitated the first few days, but after that they usually settle.  The hotter it is, the faster the stuff releases.  I also noted that using it in fall combines with the agitation from yellowjackets and other robbers, so it may not be just the Apiguard.

During the time I have it on, I just leave them alone.  No need to be messing with them right now anyway unless they require feeding.  Your honey is off, so leave them alone and see what happens.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 12:08:10 am »
Aroc,
If I broke into your home and poured poison I'll over the floor of your house, you would bee very defensive also and if you saw me coming near your home and you were armed as they are, you would bee trying to back me off.  :cheesy:
Jim'

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 12:32:15 am »
Aroc,
If I broke into your home and poured poison I'll over the floor of your house, you would bee very defensive also and if you saw me coming near your home and you were armed as they are, you would bee trying to back me off.  :cheesy:
Jim'

Come on Jim.... poison :shocked:

And yes my understandings is thymol will agitate them... in particular during a dearth... and the hotter the temps the more agitated. I also understand half a dose may have been sufficient. Did you check here? Q- 14-15-16
http://www.vita-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/VitaApiguardFAQ201607a.pdf
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 12:47:58 am by sc-bee »
John 3:16

Offline Aroc

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 12:55:41 am »
SC,

Thanks for the link.  I did in fact find that page earlier.  It made me feel better.  The temps here are going to take a nose dive.  Forecast is for snow by Friday.....snow
You are what you think.

Offline Aroc

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 12:58:09 am »
Did I mention snow.......

From 90 deg f.  To 31 and snow in two days.
You are what you think.

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 12:58:45 am »
The temps here are going to take a nose dive.  Forecast is for snow by Friday.....snow

 :shocked:
John 3:16

Offline little john

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 06:21:12 am »
Come on Jim.... poison :shocked:

Oh yes - it's very much a poison ...

Because it's an ingredient of thyme (and sounds somewhat similar), it's being advertised as a 'natural' product - but it's only natural in the same sense that creosote, tar and gasoline are 'natural': having been derived from crude oil - which itself is a 'natural' substance, having been formed from decomposed marine life over millions of years.

Thymol is actually quite a toxic substance. If you look up it's MSDS, you'll see that any form of body contact is bad news, due to it's corrosive  properties.  Skin contact is bad, ingestion worse, eye contact leads to blindness etc.

And yet it's being marketed to the unsuspecting as being a 'natural' substance, which of course implies 'harmless'.
LJ
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 07:55:33 am »
Come on Jim.... poison :shocked:

Oh yes - it's very much a poison ...

Because it's an ingredient of thyme (and sounds somewhat similar), it's being advertised as a 'natural' product - but it's only natural in the same sense that creosote, tar and gasoline are 'natural': having been derived from crude oil - which itself is a 'natural' substance, having been formed from decomposed marine life over millions of years.

Thymol is actually quite a toxic substance. If you look up it's MSDS, you'll see that any form of body contact is bad news, due to it's corrosive  properties.  Skin contact is bad, ingestion worse, eye contact leads to blindness etc.

And yet it's being marketed to the unsuspecting as being a 'natural' substance, which of course implies 'harmless'.
LJ

I figure anything sold in quantities like this, that is said to be natural, is usually synthetically produced... but had no idea apiguard is that bad..
So how do you feel when folks say OA is what is found in rutabagas? Any idea how much is in a rutabagas vs a gram treatment of OA? Not a good comparison but of coarse lemon juice on you skin long enough is not good --- poison OAk / ivy is natural :wink: I am just saying, I guess we get hung up on that natural word and think it is ok???
John 3:16

Offline little john

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2017, 08:59:45 am »
Not a good comparison ...

On the contrary, I think that OA is a very good comparison - it's present 'naturally' in rhubarb in very small amounts - just like thymol in thyme.  I suppose the difference with OA is that it's present in honey in tiny amounts - which is the argument normally employed to justify it's use.(#)   But - dunno about thymol in honey ...

Quote
I am just saying, I guess we get hung up on that natural word and think it is ok???
I think you're quite right.
LJ

(#) I use it, 'cause it works ... !
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2017, 10:20:24 am »
SC-     spinach is 0.5% AO.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2017, 10:20:29 am »
I've used "nothing" with great results now for the last 14 years in a row...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2017, 10:27:22 am »
Should be OA, it's early morning.
MB, let's not turn this to a treat or not to treat thread.  It will go on forever and sometimes gets heated.
Blessings

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2017, 11:28:27 am »
Van
If they are talking about differrent treatment then apguard already and what it does to bees then how is doing nothing with bees differrent as far as this thread subject goes.  It seems that treatment free is already part of the subject if apguard is bad and your suggestion of OA is no more out of line then treatment free. 

I read a 3 year swiss study that supposedly tested honey and comb after mutiple OA treatments and there was apparrently no measurable amount of olixic residue in the comb and honey after multiple treatments.

I have not treated for my second year and lost no hives yet and will tell you after winter how that is going for me.  So far so good.
Cheers
gww

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2017, 12:06:43 pm »
I've used "nothing" with great results now for the last 14 years in a row...

I tried the route for 8 years..then everything crashed..I am sure it is something I did or did not do  :wink:
John 3:16

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2017, 12:35:05 pm »
GWW, van here.  I did not suggest OA, must have me confused with another.  I am careful to stay out of those treat or no treat issues.

If a beek treats with what ever, I say Blessings.
If a beek does not treat, I say Blessings also.
I will post info on treatments, "spinach 0.5% OA" but that is not to say I support.
Well being to all.

Offline little john

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2017, 12:45:36 pm »
I've used "nothing" with great results now for the last 14 years in a row...

I tried the route for 8 years..then everything crashed..I am sure it is something I did or did not do  :wink:

I have no reason to doubt what Michael says - but - that's in his location, and with his bees.

The problem with that kind of statement is that it carries the sub-text "treating mites is therefore unnecessary, period.", and should anyone blindly follow Michael's philosophy then they may well open their hives in the Spring to find a carpet of dead bees an inch thick lying on the bottom - as such 'advice' (which is what it effectively amounts to) doesn't carry any guarantee of a successful outcome.  Each person needs to form their own judgement, and act accordingly - it's the end result which ultimately matters.  Sorry to hear that events went pear-shaped for you.
LJ
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Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2017, 01:46:11 pm »
Van
Quote
If a beek treats with what ever, I say Blessings.
If a beek does not treat, I say Blessings also.
I will post info on treatments, "spinach 0.5% OA" but that is not to say I support.
Well being to all.
That is how I roll also, if it is working for the person doing the work, good on them.

lj
Quote
as such 'advice' (which is what it effectively amounts to) doesn't carry any guarantee of a successful outcome.  Each person needs to form their own judgement, and act accordingly - it's the end result which ultimately matters.  Sorry to hear that events went pear-shaped for you.

There is no advice that is a garrentee of no dead bees.  I agree that each have to find what works for them and even then when dealing with live things, there will still be a set back once in a while cause no one knows everything even though most are trying to know more then they do.  I don't know my future and so will be paying attention and trying my best but will not go so far as to claim more then but what I have seen so far.

I do have hope not to experiance what SC bees experianced and hope to adjust and survive if it does happen and can not brag of doing either yet.
Cheers
gww

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2017, 02:01:00 pm »
I have no reason to doubt what Michael says .....
The problem with that kind of statement is that it carries the sub-text "treating mites is therefore unnecessary, period.",  you.
LJ

I too have no reason to doubt what MB says... he has paid ihs dues and shares with others as a courtesy. I often point new folks to his pages for beginner things but I also fear when I do they may get overwhelmed and confused with some other things... a lot of the pages content is way above a new beeks understanding and it is easy to see why a newbee would think. put the bees in a box and walk away and they will be fine. The newbee loses sight of the aspect, as they read snips and pieces, that MB has a full system. And for it to work, if it will for you, all parts have to be tended too...

I think too many newbees think or have the false idea that treatment free is walk away and watch.... IMHO.... Just saying...
John 3:16

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2017, 02:53:31 pm »
"From 90 deg f.  To 31 and snow in two days."  Aroc, what a difference.  I had to let that soak in.  Seems impossible but I believe it.  I wonder the effect on the bees, fanning one day for cooling, and clustered the next for warmth.  These bees are incredible creatures, I adore the bees.

Offline Aroc

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2017, 03:49:29 pm »
"From 90 deg f.  To 31 and snow in two days."  Aroc, what a difference.  I had to let that soak in.  Seems impossible but I believe it.  I wonder the effect on the bees, fanning one day for cooling, and clustered the next for warmth.  These bees are incredible creatures, I adore the bees.

Yesterday the temperature was almost 90?. Today we woke up to rain. The high might get to 45?. Tomorrow we may see snow. It has definitely calmed the bees down anyway.

 I do wonder if it is necessary to do a second treatment in two weeks as recommended. Some folks seem to think that the single tray I put in may have been too much.
You are what you think.

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2017, 07:19:38 am »
The reason for the second treatment is to kill the mites that are protected under the capped brood.
Jim

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2017, 10:29:44 am »

 I do wonder if it is necessary to do a second treatment in two weeks as recommended. Some folks seem to think that the single tray I put in may have been too much.

Yes, as Jim said to catch the emerging bees with mites...if you are a treater..
John 3:16

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2017, 10:30:28 am »
>The problem with that kind of statement is that it carries the sub-text "treating mites is therefore unnecessary, period."

Let's not call it a sub-text.   I do not intend to imply it.  I intend to say it outright.  Treating mites is unnecessary.  Period. If we all had never treated we would have been past this 20 years ago. I was past it 15 years ago.  The only thing I do different now that has anything to do with Varroa is natural comb and smaller foundation.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2017, 10:53:23 am »
MB, with respect to your computer programming skills, I believe that was your work and probably very good at it: but where did you acquire your knowledge in toxicology and host pathogen Relationships to make such statements as to imply the varroa problem is treatment caused and would have been extinguished 20 years ago if all had followed no treatment.

Also when you sell queens, you make no mention, none at all, not a word on "varroa resistance queens". I will buy your queens if you will guarantee me, "I will not worry about varroa for 14 years, or 15 years as stated on this thread."  Your price as mentioned, I will buy your queens IF guaranteed.
MB, this with respect to your precious contributions to Beemaster, speaking, and authorship.  Thank you, Sir.
Blessings

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2017, 12:01:40 pm »
Van
Quote
"I will not worry about varroa for 14 years, or 15 years as stated on this thread."  Your price as mentioned, I will buy your queens IF guaranteed.

This is kind of a low blow.  How many other queen sellers will give you a garantee that their queens won't swarm, that they will live 7 years, that they will make your hive produce 200lbs, that they will not get EFB or chalk brood, that they won't be super ceeded by the bees?  You either have to believe that michael is not lying that he is treatment free and base your decision to purchace or think he is lying and so you don't want to purchase.  Why does he get the privilage of being held to a higher standard then every other queen maker out there and every other reason to buy a queen from some one.  I know ace has advised me that swarm queens need replaced cause they are more prone to swarm.  How many guys out there are going to give the kind of garantee you are asking for that if I buy their bees, my hive won't swarm.

I like you brother but that is unreasonable.
Cheers
gww

Offline little john

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2017, 12:33:25 pm »
I intend to say it outright.  Treating mites is unnecessary.  Period. If we all had never treated we would have been past this 20 years ago. I was past it 15 years ago.


Michael, I find that such a dangerous absolutist statement for someone in your position to make.

By 'your position' I mean that certain beekeepers have acquired what could be described as 'Guru status' within the beekeeping community. Several names immediately some to mind: Sam Comfort, Michael Palmer, Kirk Webster ... and your own.  I'm sure there are many others - my apologises to them for omission.

With this status comes responsibilities, because there will be many beginners hanging onto your every word, and following what they consider as wise and sensible advice, to the letter.

There are those who keep hundreds of colonies, and can afford to lose a fair number of them in their search for Varroa-resistant/tolerant behaviour.  But what of our beginner, with perhaps just one or two colonies in their back-garden ?  What chance does such a person realistically have of achieving Varroa-tolerance this year, or next year ?  I'd say next to zero. And so our trusting tyro stands a very high chance of opening a hive full of dead bees come the spring.

Of course such a person could 'invest' their money by purchasing a VSH queen - but will those characteristics be passed onto other colonies in due course ?  Personally, I'm far too cynical of such claims to find out for myself, but that's not what Randy Oliver has found. http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-varroa-problem-part-7/

Now to put things in some perspective, Randy runs well in excess of 400 colonies (maybe a 1000 ?), and rears 2500 queens each season, and yet even with those numbers hasn't yet 'cracked the problem'.  So what chance does a back-garden beekeeper realistically have ?

I'll pull a quote from that webpage which pretty-much sums-up my own view of the situation:
Quote
We beekeepers need to move beyond varroa, and turn varroa management over to our bees. Breeding for mite resistance is indisputably the long term solution to The Varroa Problem. My half-assed breeding efforts to date have shown some success, but I?m as yet unable to dispense with mite management. It?s clearly time to step up my game.

There are others successfully keeping bees without needing mite treatments, and I want to be there too (but without going through the pain and cost of the Bond method). Perhaps by sharing my trials and tribulations in attempting to breed for mite resistance, I can further our collective progress.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline little john

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2017, 12:43:04 pm »
Van
Quote
"I will not worry about varroa for 14 years, or 15 years as stated on this thread."  Your price as mentioned, I will buy your queens IF guaranteed.

This is kind of a low blow.  How many other queen sellers will give you a garantee ...

If you buy a Carni or Italian Breeder - i.e. bees claimed to have specific genetic qualities - you have the right to expect a guarantee that what you receive will meet the sales pitch - or your money refunded. If a queen is being sold as having VSH qualities - why should that characteristic not also be guaranteed?
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2017, 01:08:09 pm »
I intend to say it outright.  Treating mites is unnecessary.  Period. If we all had never treated we would have been past this 20 years ago. I was past it 15 years ago.


Michael, I find that such a dangerous absolutist statement for someone in your position to make.

By 'your position' I mean that certain beekeepers have acquired what could be described as 'Guru status' within the beekeeping community. Several names immediately some to mind: Sam Comfort, Michael Palmer, Kirk Webster ... and your own.  I'm sure there are many others - my apologises to them for omission.

With this status comes responsibilities, because there will be many beginners hanging onto your every word, and following what they consider as wise and sensible advice, to the letter.

There are those who keep hundreds of colonies, and can afford to lose a fair number of them in their search for Varroa-resistant/tolerant behaviour.  But what of our beginner, with perhaps just one or two colonies in their back-garden ?  What chance does such a person realistically have of achieving Varroa-tolerance this year, or next year ?  I'd say next to zero. And so our trusting tyro stands a very high chance of opening a hive full of dead bees
LJ
[/quote]

Agreed.... my same sentiments in reply #23
John 3:16

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2017, 02:10:53 pm »
Lj
Quote
"I will not worry about varroa for 14 years, or 15 years as stated on this thread."  Your price as mentioned, I will buy your queens IF guaranteed.




This is kind of a low blow.  How many other queen sellers will give you a garantee ...



If you buy a Carni or Italian Breeder - i.e. bees claimed to have specific genetic qualities - you have the right to expect a guarantee that what you receive will meet the sales pitch - or your money refunded. If a queen is being sold as having VSH qualities - why should that characteristic not also be guaranteed?
LJ

You know it is differrent for a queen to have vsh qualitys then it is to demand that those vsh qualities garantee that bee have no issues for the next 15 years.  If the queen gets super ceeded, those qualities won't last one year. Also When you buy that queen the guy might say that his bees are keeping mites below a 1 percent mite threshold but you show me one that will give you a garantee that it will keep all your bees at that level.  You and I both know that you will not get that even from someone who is proud of their vsh bees and that was what van was asking for, to be garrenteed he would not have mite issues for 15 years.  It is splitting hairs to expect what could never and is never given by any queen seller.  I had not issue with vans questioning of michael being so sure of every one never treating and how we would be furthure along, Partly because it is never going to happen that every one keeps bees the same way anyway.  It is still wrong wether the vsh or the treatment free bees to expect anyone is going to garentee for said time that you are going to have said mileage and it can not hold that one has to meet that expectation and is bad even though no one else has to meet it.  I stand by the ideal that you either have to believe michael is telling the truth on his milage and decide if that will help you or say he is not telling the truth and then you don't have to buy.

I agree with you that it should be no differrent then a queen seller selling vsh and the same expectations should be expected from both that thier bees have such traits which will be proven in their success in thier own yards if you have any doubt.
Cheers
gww

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2017, 02:53:38 pm »
GWW, thank you sir for your comments.  I have to agree with you fella and I appreciate your thoughts. I was trying to make a point, a much larger issue is at large.

My point, one says "treat your bees or you are the problem"  yet in contrast another says "don't treat your bees or you are the problem."  These kinds of statements are opinion and arguable.  I can argue for each side as both have merit.  Scientist are trying to evolve a honey bee that requires no treatment, I am included but I need more time.  I am evaluating results daily, yes every day on my small scale genetic quest that better the bee health with my 20 hives.  Just a small drop I am in a rain forest of expertise.  It's Ok to laugh, I appreciate humor.  But I intend to evolve a hygienic honey bee that is traceable by color of the bee.

Currently I have a few hygienic hives but the genetic qualities are lost each year due to the fact I cannot determine which drones carry the genes because they all look alike.  To simplify, I have evolved a yellow/brown drone(s) with not a trace of black easily distinguishable with the naked eye from typical drones.  Step one complete, step 2 to isolate a hygenic yellow drone and breed to my red/yellow hygenic queens,,,, next spring.

Notice I have never stated to treat or not to.  I try to provide accurate information when a question is ask of either camp. 

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2017, 06:07:18 pm »
Van
My belief runs along this line.  I don't know.  That being said, I also don't discount anything others are doing that is working for them.  It is not in me to say that the guy who treats and is happy is wrong cause he put up his money to play the game.  I am unwilling to say all the small guys (and some big) who are running hives and have not treated are all liers.  I believe them.  I don't know what will work for me and make me happy.  I am putting my money in the game though.  There is no one out there that could not do something better then what they are doing now.  So fingers can always be pointed.  I figure if the guy is doing it is happy enough to keep doing it then it must work good enough.  I am not treating and I don't know what the future is going to hold.  I did not make that decission as a pureist but just that it is what I am going to do untill I change.  I am not going to be made to feel bad about anything I am doing unless it is the bees that give me that feeling and not peoples opinions.  I don't say this as a smarty but more as I have eyes and they see things to chose from to see if they will work for me.

I am smart enough to know that no matter what I believe that other people are going to do what they want regaurdless of my belief.  So why waste to much effort trying to control them, I will work on me.

People pretty much keep bees for what they can get from them and when they get to the point that they feel they are getting enough, all the arguement in the world is not going to make them do more then they want.

It is all good and my goal is not to shut down conversations of what people are doing till they are only doing what I am doing.  I want to hear what everyone is doing and how it is working so that I can steal those parts that I think will help for myself.  I want to hear it all.
Cheers
gww

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2017, 07:09:00 pm »
Yes Sir, GWW, wise words.  If you don't treat, well then more power to you.  I realize not treating can lead to resolve by natural selection.  However I have to also Bless the Beek that treats for obivious reasons.

This mite verses bee,,,,  well the general research is not new to me.  My adult life was spent researching bacteria that cause human disease.  I guarantee you have personally benefited from my contributions but this is beyond the scope of this thread.  I have published half dozen scientific papers in FEMS and other journals.  I understand bacterial disease.  Now mites and bees is a bit out of my league but the basis of host pathogen relationship is/was my life study.  Very similar to me, (antibiotics) treatment verses non treatment.  If we treat, we risk creating antibiotic resistance organisms and if we don't treat,,,,,,  So I have perceived both sides for most of my life.  Important to put the facts out there and let beeks decide for themselves.
Blessings

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2017, 07:51:14 pm »
Van
I know I am a dummy.  I hope this interaction has an enjoyment factor cause I have enjoyed yours and others responces.
Cheers
gww
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 09:40:16 pm by gww »

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2017, 08:49:16 pm »
GWW: Sir this thread is a delight, from sawdust(Jim) to Lil John and all in between.

One thing, very important you understand:: "dummy"???  I disagree, you write to well to be a dummy.  Ponder this: IQ is something a person is born with.  The smartest man I ever met had an eight grade education.  Some of the dummist people I have ever known earn a PhD.  Education means a person has been to a school and has nothing to do with being smart.  Being educated and being smart or two different things.  A person is naturally born with one(smart)  the other is acquired(education.)
Blessings

Offline kathyp

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2017, 10:43:42 pm »
I didn't get to read all of this, but there is something that has been brought up in some studies that I think is worth mentioning if it has not been. 

People are going "treatment free" and growing hives full of mites.  Those mites are spread around to all the rest of us no matter what we are doing or not doing.  I don't doubt that people have good intentions.  I don't doubt MB when he says he has been treatment free all these years.  I do have a problem with promoting this above all other things because for many people it does not work.  It may be their environment, or their experience level, or their neighbor down the road with hives full of mites, but the end result is the same.  Dead hives and disappointed beekeepers, especially if they are just getting started. 

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2017, 12:03:29 am »
Kathy
I don't dissagree with all you say except to add that it might not be the hive down the street that has the mites. It could be the swarm you lost of bees that have zero ability to handle mites due to being treated and so having no need for that trait, as being the supposed mite bomb.  The fact in the end is you have to find what it takes for you to be successful and that might be differrent for many reasons.  It could be weaker bees due to your areas forage or a differrent strain of virus.  One thing that is always left out is that even people that treat are haveing hives die.  In the end, all those things can not be controlled and so you have to find out what works for you.  I know a bunch of bee keepers at the bee club that I have went to a few meetings of (not many meeting though) lost their bees.  I did not do a poll but am pretty sure not all were treaters or treatment free.  I think the majority of them were new like me though.

I can point to a guy that has kept a small amount of hives for 20 years in the middle of all those bees that died that has not treated and has been sucessfull enough that he has not started treating.  Is he as sucessful as I hope I am going end up being?  I don't know but it was good enough for him and he did get two hundred of my dollars and so I guess it was good enough for me.  The others that lost bees are buying more and will keep doing that untill they find what works for them or quit.

I do get your point and my only point is, it would be good to know as much as you can about as many bee keepers practices as possible so you can make your best decision for your goals and then make what adjustments you need till you get it good enough for what you are happy enough with.  There is nothing wrong with whatever route someone takes and the risk that comes with that route.  I am no treating and I know my bees might die and if I am paying attention, I will still know more of what to watch for next time.  I do know there are a lot more ways then just mites to kill a hive.  I do think that when it comes down to blame of who is spreading what that the arguments that each side make like no presure and weak bees hurting the breeding pool or somebody giving your hive mite when you have weak bees that can't take mites.  Who gets to say who is wrong in that will never be settled and will never be controlled and so to your point, better to watch your own bees and dicide what you need to do. 
Cheers
gww
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 12:13:51 am by gww »

Offline kathyp

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2017, 12:27:27 am »
Quote
Who gets to say who is wrong in that will never be settled and will never be controlled and so to your point, better to watch your own bees and dicide what you need to do. 

I agree.  I just approach this from the point of view of having owned various livestock over the years.  I treat my dog for fleas, my horses for worms, and they get their feet done by the farrier.  I don't have to do those things.  I could go "all natural" and they might be OK, but I have chosen to keep them and so I do my best to keep them healthy. 

You are right about lots of things killing hives.  Mine usually go to the yellowjackets.  I have yet to find a way to successfully deal with that!   :smile:
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2017, 12:42:03 am »
Kathy
Quote
Mine usually go to the yellowjackets.  I have yet to find a way to successfully deal with that!   

I have no doubt that I will get my turn.
Cheers
gww

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2017, 11:05:42 am »
>...but where did you acquire your knowledge in toxicology and host pathogen Relationships to make such statements as to imply the varroa problem is treatment caused and would have been extinguished 20 years ago if all had followed no treatment.

First, I would say I have heard at least three of the prominent entomologists who specialize in honey bees say the same during conversations with them except they said that 14 years ago.  Second, I think you'll find I have read a lot of the research.  Third I've been keeping bees 43 years and experimenting all of those years and I've been keeping them with no Varroa treatments for all but two of those years, though, of course, the Varroa did not arrive until 1987 and probably didn't get to me until the 1990s.  I have a pretty good practical grasp of bees and beekeeping

My knowledge of most things come from reading constantly, fitting what I read into relationships with other things to develop an overall picture of the world and having a very good memory.  In addition to my extensive reading across my entire life, I also have 16 hours of college chemistry and 16 hours of college biology, among other subjects.  I'm not claiming to be the world expert on anything, but I am far from uninformed.  My model of the world is flawed, as everyone's is, but it is pretty broad in scope and pretty deep on many topics.

>Also when you sell queens, you make no mention, none at all, not a word on "varroa resistance queens". I will buy your queens if you will guarantee me, "I will not worry about varroa for 14 years, or 15 years as stated on this thread."  Your price as mentioned, I will buy your queens IF guaranteed.

I have never claimed to have Varroa resistant queens.  I think more than half of the Varroa issue is due to enlarged cell size.  But I do see signs of VSH, though I do not try to breed for it.  I think genetic Varroa resistance is a combination of many traits which makes it both complex and simple--complex in the sense that trying to identify, test for and breed for each of those traits would be too much to keep track of--simple in the sense that you have merely to stop treating to be breeding for them.

http://bushfarms.com/beeswholebee.htm

What has become clear looking at the BIP statistics from year to year on losses is there is little difference between losses by people treating and people not treating.  This has now led to the "treaters" blaming the failure of treating on the "treatment free" beekeepers in order to avoid changing their model of the world to agree with reality.  They had to invent "mite bombs" in order to attempt to explain it.  Though I fail to understand why they believe this is a logical argument. 

>Michael, I find that such a dangerous absolutist statement for someone in your position to make.

I generally avoid them.  But frankly I got back to just beekeeping 14 years ago and have no issues with Varroa and I'm tired of talking about a problem I don't have.

> Randy runs well in excess of 400 colonies (maybe a 1000 ?), and rears 2500 queens each season, and yet even with those numbers hasn't yet 'cracked the problem'. 

Odd, he tried Honey Super Cell and mentioned that he couldn't kill that colony and it continued to not have any Varroa problems, yet he tries to credit it to something other than cell size.  As long as Randy continues to treat, he will not be able to breed bees that don't require treatment.  It's like trying to breed race horses but you never race them.

I never went through the "pain of the bond method".  I lost all of them and had nothing to breed from until I regressed the size.

http://bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm

>People are going "treatment free" and growing hives full of mites.  Those mites are spread around to all the rest of us no matter what we are doing or not doing.  I don't doubt that people have good intentions.  I don't doubt MB when he says he has been treatment free all these years.  I do have a problem with promoting this above all other things because for many people it does not work.  It may be their environment, or their experience level, or their neighbor down the road with hives full of mites, but the end result is the same.

And there is the "mite bomb" explanation...

I have heard various estimates on how many people are not treating for Varroa, some are very high percentages.  My experience with people I meet is that probably at least half of the beekeepers are not treating for Varroa and most of those are doing as well or better than those people who are treating.  The problem, though, will continue to be perpetuated as long as people perpetuate bees that require treatments and those drones are still mating out there, and as long as people continue to build "Varroa factories" of enlarged cells.

http://bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm

When someone doesn't treat and their bees survive they are told by the "treaters" that it's only a matter of time.  If they don't treat and their bees die, it's because they didn't treat.  If they treat and their bees die, they are told it was too late, or too soon, or they didn't treat often enough.  If they treat and they don't die, it's because they treated. 

Reality is, people who treat and people who don?t treat lose hives and sooner or later every hive will end up queenless after it swarms, or not build up enough for winter, or start too much brood too early and get caught on brood and "cold starve".

http://bushfarms.com/beeshardestthing.htm

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