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Author Topic: Apiguard issues  (Read 2087 times)

Offline Aroc

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Apiguard issues
« on: September 13, 2017, 12:01:17 pm »
 Used Apivar last year with good results.

 Elected to use Apiguard this year to rotate treatments.

WOW......

 To make a long story short put in the pre-measured tray as described. Daytime temperatures are mid-80s. Nighttime temperatures are low 50s.

 These are extremely angry off. A lot of bearding the last three days. Looks like robbing but I'm pretty sure that's not it. This behavior has been noted as somewhat normal.

 I'm a bit concerned that this might continue. Very aggressive right now. Bees start attacking us when we are about 50 feet from hive. Wife was stung this morning and she didn't really do anything.

 Any thoughts?

Another tray is supposed to be placed in two weeks. Is it advisable to forgo this? Or should we proceed as directed?
You are what you think.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 01:15:15 pm »
Cheers, my main concern is aggressive bees, "wife was stung."  There are many reasons a hive can turn defensive.  I would stop treatment, make a change that is and determine if the bees act less defensive.  Bees that are being robbed can be very defensive, night raiders such as coons or skunks can cause defensive behavior.  At the moment, we don't know the precise reason for defensive behavior.  Try stopping the treatment and monitor from there.

I don't tolerate defensive behavior with my bees, cause is determined and remedy is employed.  Often queens are replaced.  If bees are being robbed, which is actually happening in my apiry now, then bees are moved or combined with stronger hives.  The alpha (strongest, gentlest)queen is maintained if I combine hives, the beta queen (lessor) is removed and currently in my incubator.
Blessings

Offline Aroc

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 01:54:21 pm »
Haven't been aggressive all year until I put in the Apiguard.  I have another hive I'm using Apivar in an everything is normal.  The bearding/aggressive behavior is only the hives I place the Apiguard in.

You are what you think.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2017, 02:30:55 pm »
Aroc, gentle spring time bees can turn defensive during a dearth and especially become more defensive when the hive is full of honey.

In late summer and Fall, I always wear a bee suit just as precaution.  I do notice a difference in behavior of my bees in the Spring verses late summer and Fall.  Bees are naturally more defensive when hives are full of honey.

Just a note, I do have hives that are incredibly gentle.  Even in Fall when I open a hive, most of my bees remain on the comb as inspecting in process, they do not fly, they are not nervous, rather they remain calm.  Some of my hives, a few, will act nervous when inspected.  They will be requeened in the Spring.  One of my desired traits is bees that remain calm on comb when I am inspecting.  One of several criteria when I am selecting for a production queen.

In case you are wondering, I do not sell queens, I give them away.  The locals, folks within a hundred miles take all the queens that I can raise.  I TRY to raise calm, varroa resistant, honey producers.
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Offline Aroc

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 03:13:11 pm »
What I am seeing is related to Apiguard.  I can almost guarantee it.  It happened within 6 hours of treatment and only in the two hives I treated.
You are what you think.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 03:50:36 pm »
I believe you.
Blessings

Offline kathyp

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 07:55:04 pm »
I have used Apiguard for years.  They will be a little agitated the first few days, but after that they usually settle.  The hotter it is, the faster the stuff releases.  I also noted that using it in fall combines with the agitation from yellowjackets and other robbers, so it may not be just the Apiguard.

During the time I have it on, I just leave them alone.  No need to be messing with them right now anyway unless they require feeding.  Your honey is off, so leave them alone and see what happens.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 12:08:10 am »
Aroc,
If I broke into your home and poured poison I'll over the floor of your house, you would bee very defensive also and if you saw me coming near your home and you were armed as they are, you would bee trying to back me off.  :cheesy:
Jim'

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 12:32:15 am »
Aroc,
If I broke into your home and poured poison I'll over the floor of your house, you would bee very defensive also and if you saw me coming near your home and you were armed as they are, you would bee trying to back me off.  :cheesy:
Jim'

Come on Jim.... poison :shocked:

And yes my understandings is thymol will agitate them... in particular during a dearth... and the hotter the temps the more agitated. I also understand half a dose may have been sufficient. Did you check here? Q- 14-15-16
http://www.vita-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/VitaApiguardFAQ201607a.pdf
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 12:47:58 am by sc-bee »
John 3:16

Offline Aroc

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 12:55:41 am »
SC,

Thanks for the link.  I did in fact find that page earlier.  It made me feel better.  The temps here are going to take a nose dive.  Forecast is for snow by Friday.....snow
You are what you think.

Offline Aroc

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 12:58:09 am »
Did I mention snow.......

From 90 deg f.  To 31 and snow in two days.
You are what you think.

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 12:58:45 am »
The temps here are going to take a nose dive.  Forecast is for snow by Friday.....snow

 :shocked:
John 3:16

Offline little john

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 06:21:12 am »
Come on Jim.... poison :shocked:

Oh yes - it's very much a poison ...

Because it's an ingredient of thyme (and sounds somewhat similar), it's being advertised as a 'natural' product - but it's only natural in the same sense that creosote, tar and gasoline are 'natural': having been derived from crude oil - which itself is a 'natural' substance, having been formed from decomposed marine life over millions of years.

Thymol is actually quite a toxic substance. If you look up it's MSDS, you'll see that any form of body contact is bad news, due to it's corrosive  properties.  Skin contact is bad, ingestion worse, eye contact leads to blindness etc.

And yet it's being marketed to the unsuspecting as being a 'natural' substance, which of course implies 'harmless'.
LJ
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 07:55:33 am »
Come on Jim.... poison :shocked:

Oh yes - it's very much a poison ...

Because it's an ingredient of thyme (and sounds somewhat similar), it's being advertised as a 'natural' product - but it's only natural in the same sense that creosote, tar and gasoline are 'natural': having been derived from crude oil - which itself is a 'natural' substance, having been formed from decomposed marine life over millions of years.

Thymol is actually quite a toxic substance. If you look up it's MSDS, you'll see that any form of body contact is bad news, due to it's corrosive  properties.  Skin contact is bad, ingestion worse, eye contact leads to blindness etc.

And yet it's being marketed to the unsuspecting as being a 'natural' substance, which of course implies 'harmless'.
LJ

I figure anything sold in quantities like this, that is said to be natural, is usually synthetically produced... but had no idea apiguard is that bad..
So how do you feel when folks say OA is what is found in rutabagas? Any idea how much is in a rutabagas vs a gram treatment of OA? Not a good comparison but of coarse lemon juice on you skin long enough is not good --- poison OAk / ivy is natural :wink: I am just saying, I guess we get hung up on that natural word and think it is ok???
John 3:16

Offline little john

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2017, 08:59:45 am »
Not a good comparison ...

On the contrary, I think that OA is a very good comparison - it's present 'naturally' in rhubarb in very small amounts - just like thymol in thyme.  I suppose the difference with OA is that it's present in honey in tiny amounts - which is the argument normally employed to justify it's use.(#)   But - dunno about thymol in honey ...

Quote
I am just saying, I guess we get hung up on that natural word and think it is ok???
I think you're quite right.
LJ

(#) I use it, 'cause it works ... !
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2017, 10:20:24 am »
SC-     spinach is 0.5% AO.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2017, 10:20:29 am »
I've used "nothing" with great results now for the last 14 years in a row...
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2017, 10:27:22 am »
Should be OA, it's early morning.
MB, let's not turn this to a treat or not to treat thread.  It will go on forever and sometimes gets heated.
Blessings

Offline gww

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2017, 11:28:27 am »
Van
If they are talking about differrent treatment then apguard already and what it does to bees then how is doing nothing with bees differrent as far as this thread subject goes.  It seems that treatment free is already part of the subject if apguard is bad and your suggestion of OA is no more out of line then treatment free. 

I read a 3 year swiss study that supposedly tested honey and comb after mutiple OA treatments and there was apparrently no measurable amount of olixic residue in the comb and honey after multiple treatments.

I have not treated for my second year and lost no hives yet and will tell you after winter how that is going for me.  So far so good.
Cheers
gww

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Apiguard issues
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2017, 12:06:43 pm »
I've used "nothing" with great results now for the last 14 years in a row...

I tried the route for 8 years..then everything crashed..I am sure it is something I did or did not do  :wink:
John 3:16