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Author Topic: Fat comb  (Read 799 times)

Online little john

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2017, 05:00:14 am »
It's so easy for those of us who've got a system which works (well - most of the time !) to hand out advice, and yet not take into account another person's situation.  For example, this year I've just started using non-standard 8-frame National boxes I've made and haven't inspected them even once - so don't yet know what to expect when I do.

But my other hives are a breeze.  Inspecting Long Hives is simplicity itself: even when they're getting crowded - there's always something right at the back which can be lifted out without any trouble: a frame half-filled with nectar perhaps, or more usually a dummy board.  Once that's out then the frames can be pulled back one at a time.  If I need even more space, then the first substantial comb to be pulled back can be lifted out as well and placed in a holder.  From then on, each comb can be moved away from it's neighbour before being lifted out to be checked. And of course, replacement is simply a reversal of the process.  I don't use a hive tool - never have - I use a large screwdriver instead, and position it vertically between the Hoffman spacers on one side of the frame, and then withdraw it as I push that side into place, leaving a gap at the other side where a few bees always choose that exact moment to inspect the propolis on the Hoffman edge. And so the screwdriver is then placed at that side and the frame finally pushed into position. It's much quicker to do than write about it, and in that way the bees never get crushed.

The vertical hives I use were designed to take eleven frames at 38mm (1.5") spacing, but commercially-made modern frames are now invariably 35mm.  This then leaves a rather awkward gap at one side, as these have effectively become eleven-and-a-half frame hives.  Some folks just live with this, and the burr comb which will result.  But - all it takes is a thin-ish dummy board to take-up the extra space, and the problem is solved.  And that dummy-board can always be lifted-out first at an inspection to provide the space to slide frames backwards before lifting, as with the Long Hives above.

But - I still have those 8-frame boxes to deal with at some point, so I might get a better appreciation later-on of what some of you guys experience ...
LJ
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2017, 06:35:25 am »






LJ wrote in part;
"It's so easy for those of us who've got a system which works (well - most of the time !) to hand out advice, "

Indeed so LJ... in fact, to the point of , dare I 'say' it - boring!

Yet folks should bee aware most have got there by falling over at hurdles and so have first-hand experience in respect of what some are newly discovering. To go on and on about a certain situation - and in the final washup after "advice" has been posted - to then post "oh well that is what I do whether I know what I am doing or not" does not really add any value to a thread... aside from noise, I suppose.
:shrug:

"and yet not take into account another person's situation."

In the context of my comment above, whilst all should apply some empathy
when building advice it is the "red rag to the bull" when it is learned the actual intention to change mode in altering direction does not exist, never did exist - it's a form of "I will not turn right at the red light" attitude when that red light is there for the safety of all road users, bicycle riders included.
As a personal example of flexibilty I cite my effort now to plough through
the whole read of "Sex Determination in Honeybees" as refered to by Van recently. This after ploughing through Doolittle in gaining an understanding
of your views in your situation. Both are darn hard yakka but without that experience I believe it is just comment to judge myself as a lessor person in
not being open to _why_ folks own personal stances.
Along with that the completed effort should allow myself some elbow room in participating in advice streams, positively.



"For example, this year I've just started using non-standard 8-frame National boxes I've made and haven't inspected them even once - so don't yet know what to expect when I do."

Ditto for my TBH 'change', LJ... which has now morphed into a topbar long  and foundationless hive of Lang proportions and narrowed bars.
As yourself I wait on bees to do what they do do as that may well be only proof of viability, despite my best predictive efforts in woodwork ;-)
Another project I have long wanted to tackle is to build swarm traps from bush timber (hollow logs) - equivalent in frame realestate to maybe four Lang deeps it is the adventure that keeps me moving on ;-)

Cheers.


Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2017, 08:28:32 am »
I had issues controlling swarming earlier and so now I go the other way and give them more space then is reasonable.
gww, there is a world of difference between swarm season and a dearth.  I do what you do during the spring when flows are strong and the urge to swarm is strong.  We are over the hump now and even close enough to the second brood expansion for winter prep.  This in not what I call a time for drawing comb but the little buggers have to do something with their wax and it is more like play instead of work.  Some people harvest in the summer, I don't.  In this case you are returning empty combs that need repair but they are fully drawn combs.  If you have fully drawn combs to fill up your box I think you would be OK.  But when you give them empty frames in this time period I think you are just creating work for yourself. IMO
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Offline gww

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2017, 10:29:45 am »
Ace
I only have one fall before me that I can look at and so I am not real familure with what to expect.  Last year my hives were really too small to take into winter from what would be recommended for my area.  Last year the bees did add some drawn comb to the second mediums on them in the fall.  This year I have a couple of splits and swarms that are built up like last year and so they still need the chance to build as much comb as possible if we have a fall flow.  I left the supers on the hive with them to give the bigger hives a chance to add if the flow is strong enough and come the end of sept or early oct, I am going to moves some of the drawn comb to the small hives and try to get them to at least two mediums worth of brood and stores cause even though three is the goal, I now know they can live through winter with two.

So I guess I am relieing on at least as good of a flow in fall as last year where the hives that were still trying to establish them selves did build a couple of more good comb.  Last year a single medium did built the second medium to about 70 percent full and filled and I left that on top and the other one drew and filled the second medium to about 30 percent and so I put that on the bottom of the hive to winter on.  Both were just loaded with bees come spring.  I am hoping that the bees do a little work yet and since I am starting out even that little bit gives me an edge on wintering in my mind.

I admit that even in my second year that I am having a hard time knowing for sure when there is forage and when there is not and how to handle space.  I am counting flowers and looking for what the bees seem to be on and trying to learn my area.

Bill
You mention Doolittle being hard to read.  I read Doolittle and had to read it a couple of times to start getting it due to my newness and his writing style.  I will say that I did not find him harder to read then I find most of your post to be.  I have a very hard time trying to get what you are trying to get across in you post but do try hard to get any tidbit that might have value that you write. 

I do think that you were saying that my post was worthless cause not taking advice that was given and saying so had no point.  I look at it a bit differrent then you on that.  Ace has many times given advice and tryed to help me.  I usually like to let him know what I actually do with his advice even if it is not to follow it because I like him to know that I did value his advice enough to believe that he deserves feed back, good or bad, and the possible results that his taking the time to give advice leads to.  I think most that go out of their way to help would like some feed back on the results of thier efforts.  My view is that it allows people to get to know each other better and in a way that is honest enough for them to put a value on how far and how much effort they want to put towards the relationship.  It gives ace the chance to decide things like, wow, I give advice all the time and he never listens so why do I do it, or, he listened to this part but not to that part, or, his reasons for not following my advice make sence or don't make sense and more discussion is needed.  In other words, it gives a chance to some resolutiong of the interaction.

I look at this stuff as an interaction of hopefully friends with good will to each other more then, I just want some one to do it for me.

I learn from ace and value his imput and yours and make those types of post so you guys can decide wether to also value my participation.  I consider it fair courtesy that the guy talking to me deserves to know.

Any way, all is good
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2017, 09:49:13 pm »
gww you have a good attitude and you have every right to pick and choose what advice you want to take.  I will not take offence at anything that you choose to do differently.  My advice if you can call it that is what I determined from my location.  It could be the wrong advice for your location.  For the most part I am only thinking out loud anyway.
You are not alone when it comes to Bill's post.  I struggle also.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2017, 10:20:42 pm »
@gww.
Friend, Doolittle is "hard to read" only beecause of the _language style_ used.
One would need to be familiar with the writings of the Bard and other laureate (pl) of those times to
"get it" on first pass. I do, however my usual practice is to speed read text -a skill learnt long ago - having
to slow to "normal" speed is irritating for myself. Likewise when reading papers littered with latin use
and acronyms unfamiliar to myself.

In contrast I have no problem in absorbing _writing style_ having read what must by now be millions
of bLog/posts from all corners of the globe. I include the pretenders among that lot - the ones that
"bung it on". I know how these posting styles work, believe. For my own part I edit heavily when required
and sometimes pay attention to American spelling, but that is as far as I will go, in accomadation.
And yes, I too take a person's writing style with me as a value judgement. I have no problem getting
your style albeit choosing some time ago to skip most of it. My style is built to have readers think, as
one reader has published. That style is built on the principle of "give a man a fish and you have a job for
life, give that same man a rod and you have a family well fed". There is absolutely no intention on my part to
confuse/befuddle readers, there is no mileage in that pathway.
Did I say I only explain this once?
That beecause implementation of the adage "you can take a horse to water but beewary of making it
drink" is yet another of my Life principles.
That's once :->

Cheers.

Bill

Offline gww

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2017, 12:20:45 am »
Ace
 I just want you to know that I never tell you that I am not going to do something that you advise to rub your nose in it or to show I am smarter cause I do not believe that is the case.  I tell you so you know more about me and how my mind and style works and in the fassion of full discloser cause I value you enough that I think you should know and aslo so you know where the blame lays if I later post of problims I am having.  You will have the bennifit of being able to know that I told him but he did not listen.  I have tried to help people on things I felt I had some value to add and in my view have been left hanging where I didn't know if what I mentioned was considered or even tried and did not work.  If it were tried and did not work, I would like feed back so that I did not continue to spred bad advice and either way "my view" it is nice to have resolution even if the resolution is that my advice was not going to be followed.  If there is enough interaction I might even find out what was done differrent and how that worked and it may be better then what I had suggested.  If we are friends of sorts, I think it is a good way to learn from each other.  I like that micheal seeing what I wrote on smashing the frames together might cause small hive beetle problims. Had I not writen that he would not have been able to respond and I would not have known.  Now that is good learning from each other.  I doubt I stop smashing the frames cause it has worked for me but now know what problims to look for and if I see them, I will have to rethink what I am doing.  I want to help others and not give bad advise and if you see me wrong, I would like you to put a better view out.

I personally like the help I get.

Bill
I don't ask that you read my post if you desire to skip it.  I don't ask you try and change your writing style at all.  I will read it, get what I can from it and what is over my head, I won't get.  I figure that if you have 50 years of bee keeping, that me reading you post even not understanding a bunch, that I will still find some gold here and there.

I figure if you did so well with understanding Doolittles writing style and old english way of comunication it would not equate with me reading it and knowing very little about bees while reading it.  So besides the differring phrasing that might be threw at me, my dissadvantage might be not knowing what he ment when saying things like shook swarm and shake the hive.  So I can understand the words writen but yet not know enough of bee keeping to put the words that I am reading into context of what he is meaning to say.  Reading a couple of times along with other thing will finaly tell me that when he says shake the hive it does not mean pick the hive up and shake it like the words say but that he wants to shake the combs free of bees.

I relize you like to use saying like jesus liked to use perables to get your points across like getting a horse to drink and fishing but unlike jesus doing this to make it simpler for people, I find it harder to for sure get what might be your true intent.

I have no doubt that some of the fault in my understanding what you are trying to say could be my own lack of education.  I joined the army at 17 rather then finnish school.  I have no doubt that spelling and communication are not going to be my strong suite.  I would not default you if you being from a differrent land did not work too hard to make too many allowances.  I wouldn't be the one that says you need to.  I just say when I can't understand to give you a chance if you want (not that you have too) explian furthur.

If you read my stuff and skip over most of it that is you, I do read your stuff and do my best to get what you are trying to say and not what it seems to say to me.

I just say what I say not for agreement or dissagreement but just that it is what I see and is the truth as I see it.  There is no ill will in what I see but more my understanding so far with the hope to learn more.

I will keep reading your post and looking for gold.
Cheers
gww

Offline eltalia

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2017, 02:02:03 am »
@gww.
You addressed me directly, I gave you the good grace of a response.
That's all.. no worries, no damage ;-)

FTR....? I don't do "jesus", being I left all that behind at age 16 after an upbringing readying me for theological pursuits.
Subsequent rebellion - on finding I had been fed (for years) a crock of shite - created a committed agnostic to this very day.
The only reflection I have (occasionly) is that brought on by recent revelations which see clergy dragged before Courts
on p3do charges;
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-26/pell-faces-melbourne-court-over-sexual-offence-charges/8741502
 - my question being "what was wrong with me, why didn't I get picked as "special". The only answer I can reach out to is
 I must have been one ugly kid!

What I am guilty of is using metaphors, frequently. Whilst I do hold back with prolific use I have to say it is an Australian
thing, not my owned personal education, being it is just how Aussies' talk. Combined with accinct (dialect) it does sound
like ducks talking. I am aware of it, and as said, do a lot of heavy editing and links for an international audience.


Cheers.

Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2017, 07:39:35 pm »
I have no doubt that spelling and communication are not going to be my strong suite.

Hmm... but your understanding of people goes far beyond you ability to spell and communicate.  I find this very alarming about people that have a handicap to communicate with normal people.  they have no problem communicating with people that have the same handicap.  Makes me think it is a right brain, left brain thing.  gww you have a lot to contribute to.  Just keep on posting.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline gww

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2017, 09:03:27 pm »
bill
I don't mind how you talk, I just don't understand it all the time.  It does not upset me.  I might even get better at understanding it. I ask for no changes and wouldn't expect any if I did, it is what it is.
Cheers
gww

Offline eltalia

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2017, 01:25:32 am »
bill
I don't mind how you talk, I just don't understand it all the time. 
It does not upset me.  I might even get better at understanding it.
I ask for no changes and wouldn't expect any if I did, it is what it is.
Cheers
gww

All good, let's move on.
You own an attitude in your beework which should stand you well were
you to one day mentor another. I steal this line from a thread in another
forum I know you are reading;
"Beekeeping is not easy and newbies need better support than they generally get.".
Whilst apiary management is not rocket science it can be made overly
complicated, so unless -  or until - one pushes the boundaries the KISS
principle along with "allow bees to do what they do" prove safe passage for
all over at least a half dozen seasons. With your attitude you should easily
gather those seasons.

In way of demonstrating "pushing the boundaries" I point you to LJ's thread;
" 'Making Increase' without Splits."
As this manipulation reflects "bee thinking" I can see the concept may well
work, and prove a huge saving for bees in _our_ 'demand' for expansion we
place on _their_ colony. At the very least it should assist those with narrow
windows of time in expansion, considerably so.
I suggest that thread is well worth watching.

Cheerio...

Bill
--
[thread 0ff]

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2017, 09:52:25 am »
>Maybe I don't understand the problem.

The problem occurs anytime there is honey (not brood) comb and they decide to build it fatter.  Then the comb on the other side of the gap ends up skinnier.  If you were to put the combs out of order they would not fit.  This occurs more in the honey areas than in brood areas, but in brood areas it often happens as well though only at the tops or the edges.  The underlying cause is that honey comb is not a consistent depth while brood comb is.
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"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline gww

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2017, 10:17:34 am »
Bill
I have been reading LJ's thread.  I just haven't commented cause I couldn't add anything.  I do think sometimes I should make some comment so the person writing knows someone is reading and I thought about it cause I don't want LJ to stop.
Cheers
gww

Offline tjc1

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Re: Fat comb
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2017, 11:08:57 pm »
Has anyone else noticed how the 'fat comb' and 'thin honey' threads have been back to back? :)