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Offline cidersabuzzin

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First 100 days
« on: April 30, 2017, 06:00:42 am »
 Just read an interesting article in the (Right leaning!) Daily Mail from Tom Leonard re Mr Trumps first 100 days......

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20170429/281741269315673

Having just travelled South to North I must agree with a lot he says, bridges falling down, abandoned factories, unbelievable housing, accosted by aggressive beggars on main streets. Not the impression of America I grew up with!
Still had a good time though, especially in Beale Street!
Regards
cider
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 06:19:08 am by cidersabuzzin »
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Offline Acebird

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2017, 09:44:07 am »
Just read an interesting article in the (Right leaning!) Daily Mail from Tom Leonard re Mr Trumps first 100 days......

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20170429/281741269315673

Having just travelled South to North I must agree with a lot he says, bridges falling down, abandoned factories, unbelievable housing, accosted by aggressive beggars on main streets. Not the impression of America I grew up with!

Explain to me how taking from the bottom and giving to the top will help improve the situation.  He didn't realize how difficult the job is because he is incompetent by his own admissions.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2017, 10:44:58 am »
Quote
Explain to me how taking from the bottom and giving to the top will help improve the situation.  He didn't realize how difficult the job is because he is incompetent by his own admissions.

It's not like there's a training program for the job.  Governor might come closest.  I remember Obama saying basically the same thing and complaining that he was constrained by the constitution.  Imagine that!! 

Explain how you can take from the bottom and give to the top when the bottom is not contributing?  You can't give a tax break to people who don't pay taxes.  Not only do the higher income brackets pay the majority of the taxes, they pay a higher % of income in taxes.  Hardly fair.  If you want a fair tax system everyone should pay the same % regardless of income source or amount.  The wealthy still pay the majority of taxes, but the less wealthy pay their fair share.   You would most certainly do away with the welfare program that is the earned income tax credit. 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/13/high-income-americans-pay-most-income-taxes-but-enough-to-be-fair/
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Offline Acebird

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2017, 08:34:22 pm »
Obama, like many of the other presidents took the job seriously and did not employ their whole family for their own personal gain.
If you want a flat tax I am all for it.  You will never see it because it benefits the bottom and hurts the top.  No one at the bottom has lawyers that finds loop holes.  Let me make something clear about the term "bottom".  "Bottom" is lower middle class above poverty.  Maybe not the bottom you are thinking of.  How many accounting firms would go under if there was a flat tax?  Accounting is all about taxes.  You don't hire an accountant to tell you what is left in your wallet at the end of a year.  How many government employees would lose their job if there was a flat tax?  What questions would you ask?
Kathy, if you want to be fair then the wealth at the top has to stop growing while the wealth at the bottom is decreasing.  Or are you in denial?
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Offline kathyp

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2017, 09:18:36 pm »
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Kathy, if you want to be fair then the wealth at the top has to stop growing while the wealth at the bottom is decreasing.

And how does that happen?  It happens when there is a good economy and people find work and are made to find work.  It does not happen with welfare, or by taking more from some to give to others.

The top tax brackets now pay the majority of all taxes.  The lower 47 % pay no taxes.  In no way is that fair.  The top 20% are paying over 80% of the taxes. 

when I say a flat tax that all pay, I mean all.  people don't care how money is spent if they are not contributing.  They only care that they are getting stuff.  The more people getting stuff and not paying in, the more stuff they can demand. 

Explain to me what you would do to make things fair?  I mean in detail.  How would you bring the bottom up?
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline herbhome

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2017, 09:32:58 pm »
It's simple math that 5% of a billion is a lot more than 15% of 50,000. Of course the wealthy pay a lot and they should. They got it and it hurts them a lot less than working folks.

As for "middle class" not paying taxes, maybe it's because there is no middle class anymore. In 1975, I made $9.15 per hour with health insurance in the shipyards around New Orleans. In 2007, when I retired, I was making $23.00 per hour, with health insurance etc... After calculating for the change in the buying power of a dollar from 1975 to 2007 I should have been making $41.90 to maintain par with cost of living.

The middle class has been destroyed in this country and replaced with working poor. Anytime both husband and wife have to work to afford home ownership, this country has lost the American dream.

Offline Acebird

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2017, 09:40:32 pm »
For Gods sake Kathy how do you tax someone that doesn't have an income.  Be realistic.  We are not talking about making people work for a hand out when it is possible.  That is another topic I am very hawkish about.  We are talking about the working class.  That leaves out welfare and SSI.  Which is another big entitlement.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2017, 10:42:42 pm »
Quote
For Gods sake Kathy how do you tax someone that doesn't have an income.

If they get welfare money, they pay taxes.  If they get SSI they pay taxes when they have gone past the amount put in + interest.  If they get SSI disability, they pay taxes when they have gone past the amount put in + interest.  If their child gets SSI, they pay taxes.  ALL sources of income.
yes, I know it would not happen, but if it did everyone would care more about what was done with tax money.

You still did not tell me what you would do to improve the lot of the working poor, or the poor in general.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline Acebird

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2017, 09:59:17 am »
You still did not tell me what you would do to improve the lot of the working poor, or the poor in general.

1. Eliminate the military.  It is not being used to defend our country.
2. Eliminate our correctional system.  It is not rehabilitating our criminals.  Give the criminal a choice to be a slave to the victim, chain gang, or firing squad.  Basically work or parish.
3. Tax or tariff goods that are not made in this country until companies stop leaving and want to manufacture or produce in this country.
4. Provide education to those that make the grade.  Those that can't make the grade get lesser paying jobs.
5. Provide welfare to those that work for it.
6. Provide BASIC healthcare to everyone.  Those that want something better can pay the difference.
7. Allow aliens to come work the fields by visa only if there are not enough Americans to fill these positions. No staying past visa expiration.  First offence deportation, second offence they become criminal subject to slavery, chain gang or firing squad.
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Offline Captain776

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2017, 11:00:55 am »
I dunno if my bees are Republican or Democrats.........they seem pretty Independent go me.
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Offline Psparr

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2017, 11:52:42 am »
Ace #2 was the wisest thing I think I've ever heard from you. All the rest was just socialism. How's that working out?

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2017, 03:21:56 pm »
You still did not tell me what you would do to improve the lot of the working poor, or the poor in general.

1. Eliminate the military.  It is not being used to defend our country.
2. Eliminate our correctional system.  It is not rehabilitating our criminals.  Give the criminal a choice to be a slave to the victim, chain gang, or firing squad.  Basically work or parish.
3. Tax or tariff goods that are not made in this country until companies stop leaving and want to manufacture or produce in this country.
4. Provide education to those that make the grade.  Those that can't make the grade get lesser paying jobs.
5. Provide welfare to those that work for it.
6. Provide BASIC healthcare to everyone.  Those that want something better can pay the difference.
7. Allow aliens to come work the fields by visa only if there are not enough Americans to fill these positions. No staying past visa expiration.  First offence deportation, second offence they become criminal subject to slavery, chain gang or firing squad.

If I was in your position, I would go back to the farm and be quiet. :rolleyes:
Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2017, 03:34:01 pm »
Quote
For Gods sake Kathy how do you tax someone that doesn't have an income.

If they get welfare money, they pay taxes.  If they get SSI they pay taxes when they have gone past the amount put in + interest.  If they get SSI disability, they pay taxes when they have gone past the amount put in + interest.  If their child gets SSI, they pay taxes.  ALL sources of income.
yes, I know it would not happen, but if it did everyone would care more about what was done with tax money.

You still did not tell me what you would do to improve the lot of the working poor, or the poor in general.

Kathy
Are you not creating another layer of bureaucracy, ie giving with one hand and taking away with another, for no gain, which must be anathema to you!
cider
Whats good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe us too, so long as we don't go too far to the left or right and fall off the edge...

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2017, 06:14:37 pm »
>If you want a flat tax...

I never figured out how everyone paying the same percent was a flat tax... people who make more still pay more...  Only a poll tax is a flat tax.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2017, 08:51:19 pm »
Mike the term applies to the percentage not the actual pay out.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2017, 08:54:58 pm »
If I was in your position, I would go back to the farm and be quiet. :rolleyes:

That is funny, I was never on a farm but I lived near lots of farms, mostly dairy.  Which now is a humongous subsidy and paid to very large cooperatives.  The small farms are gone.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2017, 11:54:58 pm »
Quote
1. Eliminate the military.  It is not being used to defend our country.
2. Eliminate our correctional system.  It is not rehabilitating our criminals.  Give the criminal a choice to be a slave to the victim, chain gang, or firing squad.  Basically work or parish.
3. Tax or tariff goods that are not made in this country until companies stop leaving and want to manufacture or produce in this country.
4. Provide education to those that make the grade.  Those that can't make the grade get lesser paying jobs.
5. Provide welfare to those that work for it.
6. Provide BASIC healthcare to everyone.  Those that want something better can pay the difference.
7. Allow aliens to come work the fields by visa only if there are not enough Americans to fill these positions. No staying past visa expiration.  First offence deportation, second offence they become criminal subject to slavery, chain gang or firing squad.

You and I agree on more than you think.  I would not eliminate the military, but I would use it in a different way than it has been used in the last several decades. 
2. sounds good, but won't happen
3. we have done that before.  In fact, the entire government was pretty much funded that way at one time...and then we had a civil war over who paid what, and how.
4. we already provide education and spend a lot of money on it.  If you are talking about university level, that would work but you'd have far fewer schools and too many people screaming about fairness.  I don't have a problem with people paying for education because in theory, the need to pay for it should help weed out those who do not have the dedication.  In reality, we have more a mindset problem than an education problem.  We need to stop telling kids they MUST have a college education to be successful.  They don't, and many don't want one, but feel the pressure from all sides to get one.
5. Yes, anyone getting welfare should be made to work.
6. We provide healthcare beyond basic for the poor.  We provide ER care for anyone.  They system is already overloaded so I'm not sure how this would help anyone.  and again, there would be the same cry as now...."It's not fair".
7.  yes, we need to reinstate the temporary worker program that allowed especially ag workers to come and go.  It was better for them and better for us.  We do have a worker program now, but it is cumbersome and we are unable or unwilling to properly keep track of people. 

See...we agree on more than you ever thought we could I bet  :-D
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline kathyp

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2017, 11:58:20 pm »
Quote
Of course the wealthy pay a lot and they should.
Quote
They got it and it hurts them a lot less than working folks.
Quote
The middle class has been destroyed in this country and replaced with working poor. Anytime both husband and wife have to work to afford home ownership, this country has lost the American dream.

Why should they pay a lot?
you assume that people who are wealthy do not work..and you assume that you have a right to what they have because "it hurts them a lot less"?

Why do you think things cost so much now? 
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline kathyp

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2017, 12:00:53 am »
Quote
Are you not creating another layer of bureaucracy, ie giving with one hand and taking away with another, for no gain, which must be anathema to you!

If you had a flat tax you would do away with the majority of the IRS bureaucracy. 

The gain is not as much about money as it is about getting the attention of the people.  if you make 10 dollars and you are taxed 1 you will care very much how that 1 is spent.  You will care as much, if not more, than the person who is paying the same % of their billions.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline Acebird

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2017, 08:42:10 am »
Why do you think things cost so much now?

Things?  What things?  Most things are cheap because they are made in other countries.  The problem with that is it causes a deficit in labor and that melts away the middle class and "the american dream".
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Offline kathyp

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2017, 11:11:15 am »
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Things?  What things?

All things.  Why does the house my parents bought when I was a child cost 400,000 dollars now and was 8,000 when then bought it?  Why does the car the was 2000 cost 50,000 now? 

There are a number of reasons.  I just wondered which you would list.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline herbhome

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2017, 12:43:46 pm »
Quote
Of course the wealthy pay a lot and they should.
Quote
They got it and it hurts them a lot less than working folks.
Quote
The middle class has been destroyed in this country and replaced with working poor. Anytime both husband and wife have to work to afford home ownership, this country has lost the American dream.

Why should they pay a lot?
you assume that people who are wealthy do not work..and you assume that you have a right to what they have because "it hurts them a lot less"?

Oh no, I assume they work very hard. It is in the the interests of the wealthy that the working classes are content and at least have a belief that upward mobility is possible. History-one of your favorite words-has proven that a struggling desperate (the folks that make their life possible) underclass can rise up and take all of the property of the upper class. When people are kept in a continuous state of quiet desperation, it's not a great leap of imagination to expect them to flip out and burn it all down.

Why do you think things cost so much now?

Many reasons for this, in no particular order.
1) the women's movement of the 60s and 70s placed an expectation on women to be breadwinners. Increased incomes led to greater buying power, driving costs ever upward.
2) a shift in the norm for nuclear families. Stay at home moms are unusual in todays world. This led to increased consumption of goods and services, i.e. fast food, child care, electronics, second car. What kid needs a phone and TV in his/her room? I grew up in a quiet, low crime neighborhood in New Orleans in the sixties. Not one of my friends mothers had a job, not one of my friends households had a second car. Never heard of a kid having a TV.
There are many other factors but my fingers are tired, so I'll stick with this for now.
It wasn't a perfect world and of course women should earn what men make for the same job. Any argument opposed to that is just dumb.

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2017, 12:57:51 pm »
The main reason that we have continuous inflation is that Congress and the White house stopped backing the US dollar with gold in 1933. When the US dollar was backed by gold, it was $32 an ounce. The price did not change and the cost of goods remained fairly constant as long as the goods were readily available.
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Offline bwallace23350

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2017, 02:51:01 pm »
The main reason that we have continuous inflation is that Congress and the White house stopped backing the US dollar with gold in 1933. When the US dollar was backed by gold, it was $32 an ounce. The price did not change and the cost of goods remained fairly constant as long as the goods were readily available.

The gold standard and pegging money to gold confines economic growth a lot, hurts lending, and can lead to deflation which is much more harmful than inflation. With that being said I am not fan of our economic and monetary policies.

Offline Acebird

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2017, 03:18:13 pm »
I just wondered which you would list.

The reason for inflation is spending more then you make.
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Offline bwallace23350

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2017, 03:26:26 pm »
Inflation is the speed at which money flows and is created in a system. You have two general types of inflation and that is why I stated my definition of inflation as such. You can have monetary inflation and price inflation. In general price inflation is when you spend spend spend on items and it chases the price higher. You have monetary inflation with the growth in the money supply. That can happen when the fed prints money and it happens when you pay interest to a bank.

Offline kathyp

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2017, 09:05:12 pm »
Quote
Oh no, I assume they work very hard. It is in the the interests of the wealthy that the working classes are content and at least have a belief that upward mobility is possible. History-one of your favorite words-has proven that a struggling desperate (the folks that make their life possible) underclass can rise up and take all of the property of the upper class. When people are kept in a continuous state of quiet desperation, it's not a great leap of imagination to expect them to flip out and burn it all down.

This is true when people have no opportunity and no hope.  Who keeps people in a continuous state of quiet desperation?  The government by way of dependency.  If you have been convinced that your only future is to collect the check and be satisfied with that, yes, you might become desperate.  There is an entire government industry and power base that has a vested interest in convincing people of just that. 

Quote
1) the women's movement of the 60s and 70s placed an expectation on women to be breadwinners. Increased incomes led to greater buying power, driving costs ever upward.
2) a shift in the norm for nuclear families. Stay at home moms are unusual in todays world. This led to increased consumption of goods and services, i.e. fast food, child care, electronics, second car. What kid needs a phone and TV in his/her room? I grew up in a quiet, low crime neighborhood in New Orleans in the sixties. Not one of my friends mothers had a job, not one of my friends households had a second car. Never heard of a kid having a TV.

That's a large part of it along with the higher wages and benefits in manufacturing demanded by unions.  It is also the reason no raise in the minimum wage has ever impacted the poverty rate, but does impact the cost of goods and services.  You'd have to include regulation costs in there also.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline kathyp

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2017, 09:10:51 pm »
Quote
The gold standard and pegging money to gold confines economic growth a lot, hurts lending, and can lead to deflation which is much more harmful than inflation. With that being said I am not fan of our economic and monetary policies.

Exactly.  There is no way to go back to the gold standard short of a major world wide disaster that wipes out all currency and causes all to use tangibles for trade.  I am not fond of much of what the federal reserve does and QE has been a destabilizing and potential disaster for us and all investors.

One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline herbhome

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2017, 09:51:55 pm »
Can't argue with you about onerous regulation, however environmental impact protection is worth paying for. The progress of mankind has been to move on when we've played out the resources where we are. Well, we are out of frontier. That's why we hear more and more of this nonsense of colonizing Mars.  Hey, wake up and take care of what we have!

Even more impacting on costs is the level of litigation in this country. Sure, some people do get hurt by others negligence but it is totally out of hand. IMHO :smile:

Offline kathyp

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2017, 11:20:49 pm »
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however environmental impact protection is worth paying for.

To a point.  Fencing livestock out of creeks so they don't crap in it is pretty stupid.  Not being able to collect rainwater, restrictions on every damp spot on your property, and the water grab are pretty stupid. 

There are some who believe that if a little regulation is good, more is better.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline herbhome

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2017, 11:27:00 pm »
Quote
however environmental impact protection is worth paying for.

To a point.  Fencing livestock out of creeks so they don't crap in it is pretty stupid.  Not being able to collect rainwater, restrictions on every damp spot on your property, and the water grab are pretty stupid. 

There are some who believe that if a little regulation is good, more is better.

We are in total agreement on this. :smile:

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2017, 09:20:08 am »
Quote
however environmental impact protection is worth paying for.

To a point.  Fencing livestock out of creeks so they don't crap in it is pretty stupid.  Not being able to collect rainwater, restrictions on every damp spot on your property, and the water grab are pretty stupid. 

There are some who believe that if a little regulation is good, more is better.

We are in total agreement on this. :smile:

I just want to ditto on this also.

Offline herbhome

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2017, 09:44:18 am »
There are also those that believe if some regulations are bad, all regulations are bad. To have an ordered society restrictions are necessary.

From a purely philosophical standpoint I tend to be an anarchist. If folks had no limits the society would eventually reach a state of equilibrium, but a lot of people would die first, and I'm not sure I want to live in that world.

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2017, 10:01:53 am »
Quote
however environmental impact protection is worth paying for.

To a point.  Fencing livestock out of creeks so they don't crap in it is pretty stupid.  Not being able to collect rainwater, restrictions on every damp spot on your property, and the water grab are pretty stupid. 

There are some who believe that if a little regulation is good, more is better.

We are in total agreement on this. :smile:

I just want to ditto on this also.
Double ditto.
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline kathyp

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2017, 12:06:25 pm »
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There are also those that believe if some regulations are bad, all regulations are bad. To have an ordered society restrictions are necessary
.

You need some restrictions.  more importantly, you need societal norms.  If we do not have a basic set of beliefs that are the bedrock of society, no amount of regulation will save us.  Europe has found this to be true with its "multicultural" experiment. 
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: First 100 days
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2017, 04:46:48 pm »
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There are also those that believe if some regulations are bad, all regulations are bad. To have an ordered society restrictions are necessary
.

You need some restrictions.  more importantly, you need societal norms.  If we do not have a basic set of beliefs that are the bedrock of society, no amount of regulation will save us.  Europe has found this to be true with its "multicultural" experiment.

Multiculturalism the biggest farce and the greatest danger to our civilization.