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Author Topic: How many days until hopelessly queenless?  (Read 975 times)

Offline stung again

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How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« on: March 18, 2017, 07:03:39 pm »
A queenless hive must start queen cells within 6 days of the last egg laid by a killed or otherwise lost queen or the hive will be hopelessly queenless, right? If queen cells are started within 6 days, but then destroyed on the 7th day, they are now hopelessly queenless, right? If you wanted to be sure a hive would accept an introduced queen, would they almost always accept her if they were hopelessly queenless after the 7th day, but before they started having laying workers? What would be the best time window to destroy queen cells, and to introduce a new queen in this scenario?

Offline cao

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2017, 08:27:59 pm »
I would think the best time for acceptance of a mated queen being introduced to a new hive would be from minutes after removing old queen to before they start queen cells(24-48hrs???).  If you wait til they start queen cells and then remove all(can't miss any) of them, then I assume you have until all the brood has been capped(open brood pheromones keeps workers from starting to lay).  I usually let them raise their own queen.  But if I was to introduce a queen I would shoot for within a day of removing the old one.  That would lead to a more continuous hatching of brood and not having to find all the started queen cells. 

Online sawdstmakr

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2017, 11:02:51 pm »
The 6 days comes from the fact that it takes 3 for a egg to hatch and then the larvae is fed Royal jelly for 3 days, then the larvae is fed bee bread. The queen larvae I fed royal until she is capped and for the rest of her life. Once the larvae starts eating the bee bread, she starts changing into a worker bee.
Jim
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 11:46:32 pm by sawdstmakr »
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Offline Acebird

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2017, 09:24:37 am »
What would be the best time window to destroy queen cells, and to introduce a new queen in this scenario?

Is a split out of the question?  After the split is made, the side that doesn't have a queen and doesn't make queen cells could be recombined with the side that got the introduced queen and maybe laying by now.  I am not sure if it would be better to put the queen right side on top or bottom so I am asking.
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Offline stung again

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 12:04:59 am »
Thanks for the responses and suggestions, I know there are many possibilities, but I just want to try something and be sure I get the timing right. It seems sometimes a hive resists accepting a new queen when attempting to requeen. Here in Arizona we have some very nasty tempered bees, and it is common to have problems getting them to accept a new queen. Queens cost money and I would like to try a little experiment to see if I could get 100% acceptance just by bringing the bees to a point of being hopelessly queenless before introducing her. My question is about timing. First find and remove the wicked queen. Then my question is: What would be the best day to go in and destroy all queen cells? The best day would be at the point they would be 1. hopelessly queenless
2. None of these cells would have hatched. 3. The soonest day the cells would be easily seen so hopefully none would be missed. Anyone have a suggestion on what day after removing the old queen would be best?

Offline Acebird

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 08:54:43 am »
If your goal is to just requeen the hive then why wait until it is hopelessly queenless?  In about two hours the colony will know it is queenless and start the ball rolling on making a new one.  To me this is your best chance of obtaining acceptance before they get two far into the process.  So to answer your timing question I would say two hours after you kill the queen.
The way I would do it is to combine the aggressive bees slowly to an established nuc or hive so the new queen has some protection.  If you shake the aggressive bees in front of the non aggressive bees the nurse bees will walk in and the foragers will go back to the aggressive hive.  The queen would be dumped out in the process making the aggressive hive queenless.  I would soap it at that point but if you wanted to save these foragers all you have to do is move the new hive to the old hive location.
Let us know what you decide and how it works out.
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Offline cao

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 07:31:45 pm »
If you don't want to introduce the queen before they start queen cells,  then I would wait til they are capped.  If you remove the queen(day 1) then the cells are capped by around day 7-8.  They will hatch around day 14-16.  This is weather dependent an also dependent on which day they start building the cells and how old the larva are.  So to answer your question I would do it between day 9 and day 13.  All the cells should be capped and won't get any bigger and they won't be able to build any more.  There is always the option of cutting those queen cells out and making mating nucs for them.  This would be a safety net if something goes wrong or you could sell the mated queens to recoop some money.  Its just my opinion but I just hate seeing a good queen cell go to waste.

p.s.  I just reread your last post and seeing how you are in a warmer part of the country(Arizona) I would choose day 9.


Offline Michael Bush

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 04:05:56 pm »
Unless there are extenuating circumstances, just requeen 2 hours after you make them queenless.  You're working too hard and stressing the bees too much waiting 6 days...
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Offline Jim 134

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2017, 12:17:14 pm »
If you believe you are going to have a hard time introducing a new queen. To an existing colony that is not Her bee. I would suggest kill the old Queen. Let them stay queenless overnight. In the morning when the bees a flying well. Now I would introduced the  queen cage. Either duct tape or leave the cork. So the bees cannot get her to escape. I would wait 3 days now go in and pull the cork out/or the duct tape off. I do this all the time what I'm trying to introduced a certified Russian queen bee Into a hive.
Oh yes I always go back and check for Queen cells  before pulling the cork or duck tape off

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« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 12:30:16 pm by Jim 134 »
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Offline awootton

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2017, 07:07:53 am »
Re: introducing a new queen once you have removed the old one.
Can someone enlighten me as to why you wait at all?  Why not add the new one in the queen cage immediately?  Surely if you wait, you just increase the likelihood of them starting queen cells and rejecting your (expensive!) new one. As far as I know, the new queen is reasonably safe in her cage until the hive realises it's queenless, then they are pleased to see her.  I've done this a few times and it seemed to work. Am I missing something?

Offline Acebird

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2017, 08:54:14 am »
Imagine you are in a cage and everyone on the outside wants to get you and tear you apart.  Wait a couple of hours and now imagine everyone on the outside loves you and wants to free you from the cage.  There can't be any queen cells started if there weren't any and you removed the queen.
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Offline stung again

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2017, 12:10:38 pm »
You guys are missing the point of the discussion altogether. Many of the bees in Arizona are africanized. They don't accept requeening as easily as most of you are used to seeing. My idea was to try something different by waiting until they are hopelessly queenless before introducing a new queen to see if they would be more accepting when they have no other choice. If we keep trying the same methods that produce poor results, we will keep getting poor results.

Online sawdstmakr

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2017, 12:16:55 pm »
Stung,
Your best bet will bee a couple of hours after the hive is queen less. I agree about African bees being hard to requeen, from what I have read but I think waiting too long will cause more problems.
Jim
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2017, 08:48:21 am »
IMHO waiting to get through cells and destroying them would seem to make the issue worse. Why not make a large push in cage with #8 and introduce her on the comb and let her start laying? I mean a large cage with plenty open cells underneath..

They also make queen introduction frames..
John 3:16

Offline sc-bee

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2017, 09:01:41 am »
John 3:16

Offline stung again

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Re: How many days until hopelessly queenless?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2017, 02:10:14 pm »
Finding every queen cell every time would be time consuming, and what if one was missed? I guess the push-in cage makes the most sense. I'll have to try that.