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Author Topic: Health Care Reform  (Read 624 times)

Offline bwallace23350

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Health Care Reform
« on: March 07, 2017, 02:05:16 pm »
I don't have a good answer for this but I know that we have the most expensive healthcare in the world, the ACA made it even worse cost wise, and we live shorter more or unhealthy lives compared to other industrialized nations. What would everyone else do?

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2017, 02:37:37 pm »
Stay away from doctors.
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2017, 02:57:43 pm »
Stay away from doctors.

Got that.  There are more than 200,000 deaths a year caused by medical "misadventures" as they're called.  And that's just in the US, where the docs are well trained.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2017, 03:01:02 pm »
Correction.  I double-checked myself and a study by Johns Hopkins said more than 250,000 a year are caused by medical error.  How many people die in plane crashes?  Car wrecks?  Whatever, seeing a doctor may be damaging to your health.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline iddee

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2017, 03:08:51 pm »
I read an article a couple years ago that stated the death rate went down during every doctors strike on record.
So staying away from them may well be the best advice.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2017, 04:14:55 pm »
I have to question the Johns Hopkins study's figure.  Looking at automobile accident fatalities, I see death totals of 32,000 to 46,000 per year.  Airplane crashes only killed about 2,700 in the US in 2016.  Is it really possible that medical errors could kill almost 100 times the number who die in plane crashes each year? 

I'm not doubting that flying is safer than most other things we do, like climbing ladders or getting in the shower, but it does look to me like at that rate doctors would run out of patients before long.

Okay, I brought this up and now I'm questioning it, but it just amazes me.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2017, 04:49:45 pm »
I only go when I am sick and perhaps for some preventative stuff in 30 years. Doctors always want me to get a physical and stuff but I never go in. I am 32, eat well, exercise, and don't sit at a desk. I have no known risk factors and I drink very little and don't smoke. I think I will save my money and possibly my  health.

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2017, 05:28:50 pm »
I heard a report that doctors are the third highest cause of deaths in this country.
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2017, 05:34:17 pm »
That's just counting the ones they kill because of documented errors.  That's not all the ones they kill because of bad reactions to the medication (properly prescribed) or some pharmaceutical that later turns out to be hazardous or the people they prescribe medication for that then requires more medication for the side effects which then requires more medication...  Pharmaceutical companies have now redefined the numbers for things like blood pressure and cholesterol so that everyone will require medicine.  The old numbers were based on what normal healthy people of that age had.  Now they are based on the theory that you will live longer if they lower those numbers.  I think, since shorter people live longer and taller people live shorter lives, we should stunt everyone's growth and make us all 4' tall... that is the same rationale...

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/156025856X/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

"Thirty years ago, Henry Gadsden, the head of Merck, one of the world's largest drug companies, told Fortune magazine that he wanted Merck to be more like chewing gum maker Wrigley's. It had long been his dream to make drugs for healthy people so that Merck could "sell to everyone." Gadsden's dream now drives the marketing machinery of the most profitable industry on earth. Drug companies are systematically working to widen the very boundaries that define illness, and the markets for medication grow ever larger. Mild problems are redefined as serious illness and common complaints are labeled as medical conditions requiring drug treatments. Runny noses are now allergic rhinitis, PMS has become a psychiatric disorder, and hyperactive children have ADD. When it comes to conditions like high cholesterol or low bone density, being "at risk" is sold as a disease. Selling Sickness reveals how widening the boundaries of illness and lowering the threshold for treatments is creating millions of new patients and billions in new profits, in turn threatening to bankrupt health-care systems all over the world. As more and more of ordinary life becomes medicalized, the industry moves ever closer to Gadsden's dream: "selling to everyone." "
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Offline bwallace23350

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2017, 09:12:17 pm »
That's just counting the ones they kill because of documented errors.  That's not all the ones they kill because of bad reactions to the medication (properly prescribed) or some pharmaceutical that later turns out to be hazardous or the people they prescribe medication for that then requires more medication for the side effects which then requires more medication...  Pharmaceutical companies have now redefined the numbers for things like blood pressure and cholesterol so that everyone will require medicine.  The old numbers were based on what normal healthy people of that age had.  Now they are based on the theory that you will live longer if they lower those numbers.  I think, since shorter people live longer and taller people live shorter lives, we should stunt everyone's growth and make us all 4' tall... that is the same rationale...

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/156025856X/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

"Thirty years ago, Henry Gadsden, the head of Merck, one of the world's largest drug companies, told Fortune magazine that he wanted Merck to be more like chewing gum maker Wrigley's. It had long been his dream to make drugs for healthy people so that Merck could "sell to everyone." Gadsden's dream now drives the marketing machinery of the most profitable industry on earth. Drug companies are systematically working to widen the very boundaries that define illness, and the markets for medication grow ever larger. Mild problems are redefined as serious illness and common complaints are labeled as medical conditions requiring drug treatments. Runny noses are now allergic rhinitis, PMS has become a psychiatric disorder, and hyperactive children have ADD. When it comes to conditions like high cholesterol or low bone density, being "at risk" is sold as a disease. Selling Sickness reveals how widening the boundaries of illness and lowering the threshold for treatments is creating millions of new patients and billions in new profits, in turn threatening to bankrupt health-care systems all over the world. As more and more of ordinary life becomes medicalized, the industry moves ever closer to Gadsden's dream: "selling to everyone." "

I wish there was just a like button for this post. Also our diet is killing us.

Offline divemaster1963

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2017, 09:58:51 pm »
fact. My wife  who has a genitic dease was prescibeda pill to control her shaking 1.5 months ago. it has caused her to go blind now. now we have to have mri's done becuase it is blocking the link in the pary of her brain that forms the pictures. ther is only a slight chance she will get her eyesite back. now I have to get 12 hour aday care for her.

john

Offline herbhome

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2017, 10:26:01 pm »
fact. My wife  who has a genitic dease was prescibeda pill to control her shaking 1.5 months ago. it has caused her to go blind now. now we have to have mri's done becuase it is blocking the link in the pary of her brain that forms the pictures. ther is only a slight chance she will get her eyesite back. now I have to get 12 hour aday care for her.

john

Man, that's rough brother.
I will remember you and your wife in my prayers.

Offline gww

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2017, 10:44:59 pm »
divemaster
quote from herbloom
Quote
Man, that's rough brother.
I will remember you and your wife in my prayers.

x2
You have had a rough two years.  I don't know how to help. 
Good luck
gww

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2017, 11:18:44 pm »
My prayers go out to you and your wife, John.
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline kathyp

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2017, 11:50:52 pm »
Quote
I don't have a good answer for this but I know that we have the most expensive healthcare in the world, the ACA made it even worse cost wise, and we live shorter more or unhealthy lives compared to other industrialized nations. What would everyone else do?

We do pay a lot for our healthcare.  A large part of the problem is that there are no market forces in it.  We also have access to a lot more than most other countries in both care options and drugs.  Whether or not you take them is your choice  :wink:

The bit about shorter lives and our health is deceptive.  Most of those stats come from WHO  numbers.  WHO numbers are self reported.  In addition, those numbers don't control for things like immigrants who may not have had good health care of pre-natal care.  Each country has different ways of determining things.  For example, in many countries a baby born before whatever their cutoff date is (say 24 weeks), and then dies, is counted as a miscarriage.  In this country if a baby is born that early and later dies, it is an infant death.  our infant death rate may not be higher in reality, but on paper it looks like it is.

What would I do?  I would get rid of most health care insurance except for catastrophic and let people pay cash for care.  As you carry insurance on your car for big issues, but not oil changes, so should your health insurance be structured.  Competition would bring prices down, people would know what they were paying for and how much, and everything would be between you and your doctor.  I'd also take a big axe to the tort laws because they have killed charity medicine. 

None of this will happen because healthcare is now a "right".  We are doomed to some kind of government intervention and eventually, they will get their single payer.  People have had generations now thinking that someone else should pay.  They want insurance through work or through government.  You can't change that any more than you can convince people the SSI is a bad deal.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2017, 08:12:25 am »
fact. My wife  who has a genitic dease was prescibeda pill to control her shaking 1.5 months ago. it has caused her to go blind now. now we have to have mri's done becuase it is blocking the link in the pary of her brain that forms the pictures. ther is only a slight chance she will get her eyesite back. now I have to get 12 hour aday care for her.

john

Prayers for you and your wife

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2017, 08:17:47 am »
Quote
I don't have a good answer for this but I know that we have the most expensive healthcare in the world, the ACA made it even worse cost wise, and we live shorter more or unhealthy lives compared to other industrialized nations. What would everyone else do?

We do pay a lot for our healthcare.  A large part of the problem is that there are no market forces in it.  We also have access to a lot more than most other countries in both care options and drugs.  Whether or not you take them is your choice  :wink:

The bit about shorter lives and our health is deceptive.  Most of those stats come from WHO  numbers.  WHO numbers are self reported.  In addition, those numbers don't control for things like immigrants who may not have had good health care of pre-natal care.  Each country has different ways of determining things.  For example, in many countries a baby born before whatever their cutoff date is (say 24 weeks), and then dies, is counted as a miscarriage.  In this country if a baby is born that early and later dies, it is an infant death.  our infant death rate may not be higher in reality, but on paper it looks like it is.

What would I do?  I would get rid of most health care insurance except for catastrophic and let people pay cash for care.  As you carry insurance on your car for big issues, but not oil changes, so should your health insurance be structured.  Competition would bring prices down, people would know what they were paying for and how much, and everything would be between you and your doctor.  I'd also take a big axe to the tort laws because they have killed charity medicine. 

None of this will happen because healthcare is now a "right".  We are doomed to some kind of government intervention and eventually, they will get their single payer.  People have had generations now thinking that someone else should pay.  They want insurance through work or through government.  You can't change that any more than you can convince people the SSI is a bad deal.

You seem to know a lot about healthcare and I lean towards your view on it but I admit I have no knowledge of how this stuff works really. I just try to eat healthy and avoid the dr for a variety of reasons unless I have to. I do believe in vaccines though.  How do you feel about health savings accounts and insurance for major things? I pay over 400 a month to cover my son and I. One trip to the pediatrician or him costs a little over 100 dollars. I could go 3 times to the dr and come out cheaper and still have room for catastrophic coverage insurance. We have yet to go to the dr 3 times in one month though with him. The most is twice. Once for me when I caught strep from him and then earlier for him to be diagnosed with strep. I say all that to say that I like the idea of heath savings accounts and major health insurance I believe it would be cheaper but have no proof of that.

Offline kathyp

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2017, 12:13:44 pm »
Quote
How do you feel about health savings accounts and insurance for major things?

They are a great idea.  people who have little need for going to the doctor should not have to pay 1000s of dollars a year.

Example:  My brother had a plan he liked and so without checking (his fault) he let it automatically renew.  The plan was then 30,000 for the year.  They had 3 doctors visits for the year.  Forgetting the deductible or co-pays, that made each visit worth 10,000 dollars.  He would do far better to have a catastrophic plan to cover huge stuff and pay cash for everything else. 

doctors and hospitals prefer cash and will usually give you a discount for it.  Saves them paperwork and waiting for insurance companies to pay. 

One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2017, 12:27:32 pm »
>Whether or not you take them is your choice

Actually if you refuse to take what the doctor prescribed the doctor can accuse you of not following their orders and your insurance may refuse to pay your bills...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm
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Offline Al Stein

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Re: Health Care Reform
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2017, 05:03:35 am »
When was the last time a politician was recalled (or even primaried) because of how they voted on a health care bill?
I think never?

My point is that We The People have the tools to crack the whip, but we aren't using them.