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Author Topic: queens mating  (Read 1279 times)

Offline Sebashtion H.

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queens mating
« on: November 08, 2016, 02:25:40 am »
here is my thoughts
if I buy a AI Queens say Cordovan, Italian, Minnesota Hygienic,  graft off them and open mate the daughters would I need separate yards for each breed? my thought is if I have one yard for theses queens wouldn't they would breed with any drone in the DCA and be mutt queens or mixed queens?

is this correct thinking or over thinking it..

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: queens mating
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2016, 12:59:58 pm »
Your queens will mate with from 12 to 60 drones and not your drones. She will fly about 3 kl to find a DCA away from the hive to try to make sure she does not mate with sons. The drones normally fly 1 K, (.6 miles).
If you want pure genetics you will need an Island with drone hives setup. They do exist in Europe and they mating costs are expensive.
I like just having local mutts. They are better survivors.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: queens mating
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2016, 05:45:32 pm »
I would not waste my money on II queens...
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Offline Sebashtion H.

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Re: queens mating
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2016, 02:13:02 am »
I would not waste my money on II queens...

so what would you recommend?

Offline little john

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Re: queens mating
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2016, 04:57:18 am »
Your queens will mate with from 12 to 60 drones and not your drones.

That is certainly current thinking, and not something I would argue against ... BUT ... Jay Smith once made a rather interesting observation which was (in my words): "if queens do not mate with their own drones, then why does a colony finding itself queenless towards the end of the season retain whatever drones it has in residence.  For what purpose does it do that ?"

I find that to be one helluva(n) astute observation, and the only 'back-of-a-fag-packet' explanation I can offer is that - in the absence of more 'desirable' drones - a colony will tolerate such in-breeding for a generation in order that it may survive.  Nothing to back that up - it's just the only plausible explanation I can think of.
LJ
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Offline little john

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Re: queens mating
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2016, 05:55:20 am »
what would you recommend?

My (biased) advice would be to buy the best Carniolan or Buckfast queen on offer at sensible money.  My reasoning being based, not on the behaviour of the queen that you buy this year, but on the bees that you will be raising in future years.

Why Carniolan ?
Quote
From Gillman 'Practical Bee Breeding': Some Races of the Honey Bee.

Carniolans ... "A cross with the male Carniolan and a queen of another race brings very little improvement, but a cross in the opposite way results in a really good bee".

Then, in future years, as the Carnie genetics become progressively diluted, just top them up again with another Carniolan queen - or live with what you've got if their behaviour is stable.


Alternatively, and assuming you can find one, the Buckfast bee has a good reputation.

With regard to keeping that breed stable, and without recourse to buying-in pure-breds every year or so, Brother Adam gave this advice to an amateur beekeeper in 1981:
"Every year you decide which half of your bees is the least good one. In those colonies you shift queens. You get the queens to put into those colonies by making a daughter queen from each and every one of the colonies in the best half of your colonies. Let the new queens mate in your apiary."


The only thing I think is REALLY important is to let your genetic population stabilise, and not chop-and-change your bee type every few years.  I have had to do exactly this several times over the the last few years having purchased so-called 'breeder queens' which turned out to be either mongrels or sub-standard, and removing their genetics from the apiary has been both tricky and hard work (and no doubt incomplete).  I eventually purchased Carniolan breeders 'from source' (a certified Slovenian breeder) in order to obtain some 'reference genetics' with which to re-start.  So - learn from my mistakes - if you're buying queens to breed from, checkout the seller very carefully before parting with your money.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: queens mating
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2016, 10:59:12 am »
>so what would you recommend?

Local survivors.  If you can't catch swarms then raise your own queens so they mate with local survivors.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Offline Sebashtion H.

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Re: queens mating
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2016, 12:23:35 pm »
what would you recommend?

My (biased) advice would be to buy the best Carniolan or Buckfast queen on offer at sensible money.  My reasoning being based, not on the behaviour of the queen that you buy this year, but on the bees that you will be raising in future years.

Why Carniolan ?
Quote
From Gillman 'Practical Bee Breeding': Some Races of the Honey Bee.

Carniolans ... "A cross with the male Carniolan and a queen of another race brings very little improvement, but a cross in the opposite way results in a really good bee".

Then, in future years, as the Carnie genetics become progressively diluted, just top them up again with another Carniolan queen - or live with what you've got if their behaviour is stable.


Alternatively, and assuming you can find one, the Buckfast bee has a good reputation.

With regard to keeping that breed stable, and without recourse to buying-in pure-breds every year or so, Brother Adam gave this advice to an amateur beekeeper in 1981:
"Every year you decide which half of your bees is the least good one. In those colonies you shift queens. You get the queens to put into those colonies by making a daughter queen from each and every one of the colonies in the best half of your colonies. Let the new queens mate in your apiary."


The only thing I think is REALLY important is to let your genetic population stabilise, and not chop-and-change your bee type every few years.  I have had to do exactly this several times over the the last few years having purchased so-called 'breeder queens' which turned out to be either mongrels or sub-standard, and removing their genetics from the apiary has been both tricky and hard work (and no doubt incomplete).  I eventually purchased Carniolan breeders 'from source' (a certified Slovenian breeder) in order to obtain some 'reference genetics' with which to re-start.  So - learn from my mistakes - if you're buying queens to breed from, checkout the seller very carefully before parting with your money.
LJ

it was just an example still researching what I would like to Breed so far Im looking at Italian Hygentic, a Florida mutt and Cordovan (cause I like the color)

Offline Troutdog

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Re: queens mating
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2017, 12:48:19 pm »
what would you recommend?

My (biased) advice would be to buy the best Carniolan or Buckfast queen on offer at sensible money.  My reasoning being based, not on the behaviour of the queen that you buy this year, but on the bees that you will be raising in future years.

Why Carniolan ?
Quote
From Gillman 'Practical Bee Breeding': Some Races of the Honey Bee.

Carniolans ... "A cross with the male Carniolan and a queen of another race brings very little improvement, but a cross in the opposite way results in a really good bee".

Then, in future years, as the Carnie genetics become progressively diluted, just top them up again with another Carniolan queen - or live with what you've got if their behaviour is stable.


Alternatively, and assuming you can find one, the Buckfast bee has a good reputation.

With regard to keeping that breed stable, and without recourse to buying-in pure-breds every year or so, Brother Adam gave this advice to an amateur beekeeper in 1981:
"Every year you decide which half of your bees is the least good one. In those colonies you shift queens. You get the queens to put into those colonies by making a daughter queen from each and every one of the colonies in the best half of your colonies. Let the new queens mate in your apiary."


The only thing I think is REALLY important is to let your genetic population stabilise, and not chop-and-change your bee type every few years.  I have had to do exactly this several times over the the last few years having purchased so-called 'breeder queens' which turned out to be either mongrels or sub-standard, and removing their genetics from the apiary has been both tricky and hard work (and no doubt incomplete).  I eventually purchased Carniolan breeders 'from source' (a certified Slovenian breeder) in order to obtain some 'reference genetics' with which to re-start.  So - learn from my mistakes - if you're buying queens to breed from, checkout the seller very carefully before parting with your money.
LJ

it was just an example still researching what I would like to Breed so far Im looking at Italian Hygentic, a Florida mutt and Cordovan (cause I like the color)
Choose a bee that fits your environment. Cordova is a recessive gene expression not necessarily a true sub species.
Darker bees for the north lighter bees for the south.

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Offline Troutdog

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Re: queens mating
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2017, 12:58:33 pm »
>so what would you recommend?

Local survivors.  If you can't catch swarms then raise your own queens so they mate with local survivors.
To MB'S point
One bigger problem in many a Sideliner yard is a lack of homogenous time tested stock.
So if you just keeping improving your lines from your best each year essentially you are making a Locally adapted bee that will out perform anything you can buy.
It's takes 3 yrs to get them locally acclimated, and then your selection process can be more specific such as color or Hygenic's etc.
Hybrids are tricky f1 regression etc, mongrels are many lines and I think has an advantage of having more genetic potential. Generally it's environment that makes the nutrition that makes  the switches or alleles turn on or off.
Having restocked the yards 3x now with carniolan and watch how the yellow color dominates quickly from open mating, I have also observed the mongrels to preform much more like a Carniolan than an Italian. Occasionally we get a scuterella dominance and that is dealt  with quickly and robustly.
It's all fun but remember a good record keeping system is imperative. To track mistakes and grandaughter performance.


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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: queens mating
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2017, 09:51:08 pm »
I have to agree with Michael Bush local survivors if at all possible. Beyond that I would highly recommend either raising your own queens or finding a local breeder because local breeders have genetics that can survive.
Just my 2 pennies for what it is worth.

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