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Online iddee

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six scary little words
« on: October 20, 2016, 08:19:38 pm »
There are six scary little words for all voters who backed losing candidates in the Republican primaries and who are threatening to sit out the November election because they don?t like Donald Trump!!!
 
These six words:  SUPREME COURT JUSTICE BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA!!!!!
 
The choice in November is clear ? it will be either Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton!  A No Vote is the same as a vote for Hillary Clinton. 
 
If Hillary Clinton, wins (arguably the most dishonest and corrupt person ever to run for President of the United States), there is no doubt that a President Hillary Clinton will name Barack Obama to the Supreme Court for several very good reasons:  he has allowed her to walk away any responsibility for Benghazi where several U.S. citizens were murdered; he has allowed her to walk away from funneling Clinton Foundation funds to her own bank account; and he has covered her backside, no easy task that in itself, in the email server scandals - and now wants payback.
 
He claims credentials as a Constitutional lawyer; he is buying a mansion in Washington D.C. and has made no secret of his desire to stay in the capitol; and he could complete his ?fundamental transformation? of our Republic during a lifetime on the Supreme Court.  If that?s not enough to scare everyone into voting, I don?t know what will.
 
Even if you DISLIKE "The Donald", grit your teeth and VOTE for him; our plight is so severe that maybe he?s what we need to survive at this time!  The alternative is simply too DEVASTATING and UNIMAGINABLE!!!!
 
 
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2016, 09:23:03 pm »
iddee
It's not the few people that view this forum you need to convince, the people at large (by the looks of it) just don't buy it! It may take a couple or more elections  for someone to come forward who is more electable. I agree the political system seems corrupt and both candidates should have fallen by the wayside, better candidates  by far dropped out. It will take at least eight years or more before the electorate becomes sick of the mainstream parties (and trump is still of the mainstream,ie money) to see the benefits of a more subdued, thoughtful person/s. I can only hope I'm around to see it!
Regards
cider     
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 The BFG

What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?
The Ladies could still teach the Borg a thing or two!....and maybe iddee too, so long as he don't go too far to the  right and fall off the edge...but I think maybe some comb over artists already have!.....

Offline gww

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2016, 09:28:12 pm »
Iddee
I think I would like obama (even though that is not what is going on and the election is) for life on the supreme court then Donald in office for four years.  You got to pick your poisen.  You can say a liberal court is bad and I can say stop and frisk is bad.  I figure neither is great but stop and frisk just has to be wrong if it is me they are stopping and frisking. 

I can not respect a guy who can't even stay on the same tract with out contradicting himself from sentence to sentence.  For example it is fuzzy logic to say there is a problem with immigration now and in the next sentence say that obama is deporting all kinds of people which is what I am going to do.  This guy runs on feelings and has no moral compass that stops him from saying the opposite of what he says he believes just to beat down on someone.  Winning is fine but the right thing is better.  He just seems to want to win regardless of wether his winning makes the right thing happen.

You can vote for him in the hopes that he really means to keep republican principals and as an alternative of the liberal democratic principals but I don't believe him and that he would really hold conservative principals.  He is not believable and I don't believe him and don't really believe he believes in conservative principals and mostly believe he believes he should be a big shot and that is all that really matters.  He can't even help but throw in where he is staying for the night and how nice it is.
I don't respect his life he has lived or him.
Thats just me though.
cheers
gww

Online iddee

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2016, 09:43:54 pm »
Those who can comprehend English on a third grade level or better can read the last half of his sentences and get the opposite meaning from what the media puts out.
EXAMPLE. Ban all muslims.........................until they can be properly vetted. To a third grade student or above, that would mean let's check them before letting them in. To dems, it means ban them all.

Yes, choose your poison, an unknown route, or a known death march. Sorry, I am taking the unknown.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Online Dallasbeek

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 06:49:51 am »
Iddee speaks the truth.  If you  like what Obama has done in 8 years you'll really love what he can do in the rest of his life as a Justice of the Supreme Court.

"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2016, 11:36:51 am »
I do like what Obama has done in his term as president.  He took over after a trigger happy alcoholic imbecile and brought the intelligence of the presidency up ten fold.  He, Obama, was handed an economy the likes of the great depression and dug us out.  He saw a basic need for health insurance for a population that lost their jobs (THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN).  Unfortunately, he was stonewalled by congress on everything that he thought the country needed and that always means you have to make concessions with the devil.

I don't think Hillary is as intelligent as Obama but I know she is quite intelligent and has a rapport with leaders all over the globe.  The other moron is a pea brain (Biggly) and couldn't be a friend to a hooker, although he has married a couple.  Hillary is not my first choice but she is the only choice this term.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2016, 06:45:48 pm »
Quote
I do like what Obama has done in his term as president.  He took over after a trigger happy alcoholic imbecile and brought the intelligence of the presidency up ten fold.  He, Obama, was handed an economy the likes of the great depression and dug us out.  He saw a basic need for health insurance for a population that lost their jobs (THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN).  Unfortunately, he was stonewalled by congress on everything that he thought the country needed and that always means you have to make concessions with the devil.

I don't think Hillary is as intelligent as Obama but I know she is quite intelligent and has a rapport with leaders all over the globe.  The other moron is a pea brain (Biggly) and couldn't be a friend to a hooker, although he has married a couple.  Hillary is not my first choice but she is the only choice this term.

I think you make these posts just to yank chains.   :wink:

Trigger happy (the rest no worth comment):  We are deployed and fighting in more places now, than when Bush was president.  Obamas precipitous withdrawal from Iraq, handed ISIS a base of operation they had not had, and we are now back there taking care of what should never have happened.  If the intelligent one had listened to his experienced military advisors, we would not be back there fixing his mess.

Recessions and depressions happen.  Clinton handed Bush a bad economy too and UBL to sweeten the deal.  I don't remember Bush ever whining about the economy or the fact that Clinton failed to deal with UBL when he could have.  As for recover, if we are having one, and economists debate that, it is an extremely weak recovery.  We are predicted to go back into recession by next year and there is no wiggle room left for doing things like lowering interest rates.  The next one will be worse.  Is that Obamas fault?  Not really, but a large part of the weak recovery can be laid on him and it includes Obama care. 

Obama care.  Failure.  A few people have gotten insurance.  All of us have seen our insurance go up.  Many could not keep what they had and have ended up paying more for less.  Insurance companies are pulling out of it.  States are shutting down exchanges.  I can't think of any federal program in my lifetime that has been a bigger failure.

Stonewalled by congress:  How about some examples of that?  Not only has congress not been able to stop what he's doing, he has ignored the courts.  Meanwhile, he has been allowing 1000s of illegals to stay, 1000s of "refugees" to come here, has blocked things like drilling on federal lands and the pipeline from Canada.  He has had appointed military leaders that further his social agenda to the detriment of the forces.  Seems to me, he's been pretty successful in his fundamental change of the country.

Meanwhile, Hillary has failed at everything she has attempted in government, except maybe as senator where she did next to nothing.  The world is less safe because of Obama and Hillary.  The world likes and respects us less because of them.  We are in more conflicts and there are more conflicts around the world.  Both China and Russia are saber rattling, and Russia is taking action not only to take over other countries, but has threatened us.  They now have their sights on Finland. 

There is not one thing that Hillary has been involved in as a private citizen, or public, that has not been corrupt.  Her law firm dealings, investments, her time as 1st lady, the foundation, the server and emails, the money she has taken from the people she claims to want to rein in.........you name it and it has been corrupt.  I am not a Trump fan either, but Hillary is the textbook definition of sociopath, from the way she conducts business, to the way she treats those around her. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Psparr

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2016, 07:49:33 pm »
Kathy, I'm glad you had the breath to take care of that. I couldn't.

Offline kathyp

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2016, 08:19:53 pm »
Kathy, I'm glad you had the breath to take care of that. I couldn't.
Lol. 

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2016, 08:53:13 pm »
Kathy
Quote
Obama care.  Failure.  A few people have gotten insurance.  All of us have seen our insurance go up.  Many could not keep what they had and have ended up paying more for less.  Insurance companies are pulling out of it.  States are shutting down exchanges.  I can't think of any federal program in my lifetime that has been a bigger failure.

And obama care was a needed thing and the republicans answer is not to fix any problems but to recend it.  They are picking away at it the minute it passed and stonewall or claim foul when efforts are made to make it work.  When it was extended because of problems the republicans were yelling violation of the law.  This is supposedly a law they hate so why would they care if some part of it was made a bit better unless their real goal is to just stir crap.  If their ideal is to use the law to make the program hurt people so that it will be unpopular, well that is just screwed up.  People were losing their insurance through there jobs through no fault of their own like ace says and something had to be done.  I know that you have mentioned before that when employers offerred insurance that it was a bad thing.  Heck some of that started in the late 30s and society was pretty good cause of it.

Quote
Meanwhile, Hillary has failed at everything she has attempted in government, except maybe as senator where she did next to nothing.  The world is less safe because of Obama and Hillary.  The world likes and respects us less because of them.  We are in more conflicts and there are more conflicts around the world.  Both China and Russia are saber rattling, and Russia is taking action not only to take over other countries, but has threatened us.  They now have their sights on Finland.

Putting those two together as a cause and effect is just a feeling not a fact.  It only takes one to make war but two to make peice.  Why couldn't a guy jump to the conclusion that china is more aggressive because they had a one child rule and now recognize that in the future they are going to have an aging population with no workers to take care of them.  Why couldn't that be an impact on why they think their day is now. 

I also have a differrent take on issues.  When we left Iraq where we shouldn't have been anyway and where the Iraq was also not a loyal partner then maby it took isses to make them loyal.  Why is it worse now having a couple of troops then having them there all the time.  If Isis had taken Mosul while we were there and massacred a bunch of Americans would you have been saying that was a mistake.  We can't say that that wouldn't have happened, we can only deal with probabilities that may be correct and may not.

Heck that stuff over their is complicated and there is no real way of knowing what was the right thing to do until after it is done and then you might know.  I am not sure that the libertarian platform of isolationist isn't better then a first responce of shooting things.
I just think that some of the republican points that they are highlighting might just be a bit self serving more then the absolute truth.  I like what Dallas said in a differrent post that sometimes it takes some time to go by and then a revisit to get the feeling out of the picture and look at it more in a historical light.
I always enjoy your responces to my gibberish.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2016, 12:56:31 am »
Quote
And obama care was a needed thing and the republicans answer is not to fix any problems but to recend it.  They are picking away at it the minute it passed and stonewall or claim foul when efforts are made to make it work.  When it was extended because of problems the republicans were yelling violation of the law.  This is supposedly a law they hate so why would they care if some part of it was made a bit better unless their real goal is to just stir crap.  If their ideal is to use the law to make the program hurt people so that it will be unpopular, well that is just screwed up.  People were losing their insurance through there jobs through no fault of their own like ace says and something had to be done.  I know that you have mentioned before that when employers offerred insurance that it was a bad thing.  Heck some of that started in the late 30s and society was pretty good cause of it.

No it was not needed.  Reforms are needed and there are many that have been proposed and shot down by the typical leftist groups.  Tort reform is needed, but lawyers don't want that.  Portability of policy was needed, but the insurance companies and states that have mandates didn't want it.  Bringing market forces into medicine again would help tremendously, but everyone thinks someone else should pay for their stuff.  It is that thinking that has driven up cost and lost both the industry and the patient the need or ability to be accountable. 

You are correct that republicans and anyone with any market sense, hated it and warned that it would fail.  You are wrong that republicans have done anything to it.  Wish they had, and the fact that they haven't is part of the reason so many are angry with them.  There is NOTHING that has been done by republicans to make the law hurt anyone.  The law has done that by itself.  I live in a very liberal state.  The exchange here failed before it even started and cost the state billions for nothing.  It was never touched by a republican. 

Not one promise made when this thing started has come true.  It has not insured nearly as many people as promised.  You can't keep your policy if you like it.  It did not save money, and in fact cost many much more money, and it is not working.  It is now being offered to people we were promised would not qualify, and the ERs are still being used as primary care even by those with insurance because now no one can get an appointment.  Medicare dollars were cut for this and now Medicare is having problems and doctors are quiting it under the new pay and rules.


Quote
Putting those two together as a cause and effect is just a feeling not a fact.  It only takes one to make war but two to make peice.  Why couldn't a guy jump to the conclusion that china is more aggressive because they had a one child rule and now recognize that in the future they are going to have an aging population with no workers to take care of them.  Why couldn't that be an impact on why they think their day is now. 

I also have a differrent take on issues.  When we left Iraq where we shouldn't have been anyway and where the Iraq was also not a loyal partner then maby it took isses to make them loyal.  Why is it worse now having a couple of troops then having them there all the time.  If Isis had taken Mosul while we were there and massacred a bunch of Americans would you have been saying that was a mistake.  We can't say that that wouldn't have happened, we can only deal with probabilities that may be correct and may not.

Let's try this another way.  She was SoS.  Her job was diplomacy.  What is better for her diplomatic efforts?  She failed to get a SOFA in Iraq.  That is the first SOFA effort ever to fail anywhere.  Libya, Syria, the Russian aggression, the Chinese aggression, the Philippines, Iran.  not all of these things came to fruition on her watch, but all the failures started there.

Whether you think we should have gone into Iraq or not, it was stable when Obama took over.  He said so.  It was his excuse for leaving.  It is very unlikely that ISIS would have spread as quickly and with no fear of retaliation if we had a base there.  It also would have been a deterrent to Syria and Iran.  and, we are still in Afghanistan, the one place we never should have stayed.

While it is true we can't predict the future, we can use history as a guide.  In the past, those places that have had our presence have been more peaceful...until this admin.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online Dallasbeek

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2016, 10:48:37 am »
Off topic, but the media are having fits that Trump refused to agree to concede defeat if he lost.  Thry're saying it goes against a long tradition of losing candidates abiding by the outcome of elections.  REALLY?  When have the Democrsts conceded defeat?  What was Al Gore doing in 2000?  Was that accepting the outcome of the election?  The media's contribution of barefaced support for the Democrstic party probably equals all the monetary contributions the party receives. 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline gww

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2016, 11:27:09 am »
Kathy
You are more studied on events and I always learn some things I didn't know when I read your responces.

I have always had insurance through work just like you had health care when you were in the military.  I would like to see a single payer system in America and in my mind it would have the possibility of creating some new jobs.  No longer would a guy have to stick with an employer due to not being able to afford to leave his benefits.  It would give him freedom to persue things that more interest him even if the pay was a bit less.  You say cost would be a bit less if everyone had to pay for there own.  I say that only works if you are lucky and don't get sick.  I also say that in a way we have a single payer system now.  The only difference is that those who don't have insurance are paid for by those that do.  That leave quite an extra burdon on those that do have it and makes cost higher cause some get by with out buying insurance but are still not refused care.  It is much fairer if every one contributes.  We could get rid of the laws that stop hospitals and such from having to treat if they don't think they will get paid but I am not convinced that it would make society better.  Obama care may not have been the total answer but it was a step that now with its problems forces those problems to be addressed.  It is not the end picture but a step.  There are real problems and making people take responsibility for their own care just means that only the super rich could have a chance a addressing really bad health issues cause the truth is that most could not afford a heart transplant from their own pocket just as most could not replace their house if lost in a hurricane.  The difference with house compared with health is with house you are still alive to start at the bottom and struggle up with health you may just be dead.

To the other point of if we were there Isis's probably would not have tried,  It is close to the same but the united nations was in Somalia and the people still killed two of our troops and dragged them through the street, Iran did take American hostages, united nations in Rwanda being there did not stop the massacre.  As far as Afghanistan, at least I understood why we went there after the trade towers, I don't understand going to Iraq before Afghanistan or at all.  I will make one statement that hurts my own loyalties such as they are.  All those people that jumped on bush's bandwagon and give him the authority to go to Iraq and later claimed that they were lied to, I say they where part of the lie and knew the truth when they were voting.  I do believe that the gov used the media to try and lie to the people but even while they were spouting their weapons of mass destruction blatter, I could see they were lying at the time.  It reminds me of a couple of mob type actions I have seen where people no longer have a will of their own and get caught up in following the crowd.  I have had such pressures put on me and know how hard it is to swim against the current.  I do think is is disingenuous for some to claim they were lied to when they were part of perpetrating said lie.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2016, 01:03:45 pm »
Quote
I would like to see a single payer system in America and in my mind it would have the possibility of creating some new jobs.

No doubt!   :cheesy:  The NHS in England was the largest employer in Europe at one time and the 3rd largest employer in the world.  I have not checked then numbers lately.
Now..that might seem like a good thing, but those are government jobs.  That means the taxpayer is paying for all those people.  In addition, for all that employment, the NHS covers 65 million people.  We have 400 million people.
In addition, the care is not good in a lot of places and there are not choices.  Pull up some of the British new reports over the last decade and see how they have scrambled to fix things....basic things.

I am not suggesting that there should be no insurance available.  I am pointing out that people used insurance for everything and if they did not, cost would be lower.  Every pharmacy right now is offering flu shots.  You can find them from 1 dollar to 10 dollars.  Where do you go for your flu shot?  Unless you are stupid, you go to the 1 dollar place.  Same shot.  less money.  Choices.  Competition.

Costa Rica has a fantastic medical system that attracts medical tourism.  It is all cash.  It is far cheaper and you get spa care for whatever you are having done.

Remember when  radial keratotomy was new?  It was extremely expensive.  As more people wanted it and more places offered it, the cost came down.  It's now pretty cheap.

All care is rationed in some way.  The only question is who rations.  It is rationed by what you can afford, by what insurance is willing to pay for, or by what the government offers.  In the first two, you still have choices.

Quote
To the other point of if we were there Isis's probably would not have tried,  It is close to the same but the united nations was in Somalia and the people still killed two of our troops and dragged them through the street, Iran did take American hostages, united nations in Rwanda being there did not stop the massacre.  As far as Afghanistan, at least I understood why we went there after the trade towers, I don't understand going to Iraq before Afghanistan or at all.  I will make one statement that hurts my own loyalties such as they are.  All those people that jumped on bush's bandwagon and give him the authority to go to Iraq and later claimed that they were lied to, I say they where part of the lie and knew the truth when they were voting.  I do believe that the gov used the media to try and lie to the people but even while they were spouting their weapons of mass destruction blatter, I could see they were lying at the time.  It reminds me of a couple of mob type actions I have seen where people no longer have a will of their own and get caught up in following the crowd.  I have had such pressures put on me and know how hard it is to swim against the current.  I do think is is disingenuous for some to claim they were lied to when they were part of perpetrating said lie.
Cheers
gww


What do Somalia, Rwanda, Iran incidents have in common? 

The rewriting of history to say we were lied to about Iraq intel is a lie that the left is happy to spread, even though many of them had access to that same classified intel. 
Much of that intel was true.  Some was not.  That's the way intel works.  Most of it came from foreign allies in the area, Jordan and France were both providers of the bulk of it.  Jordan was not to interested in our going to war, but they were very intersted in what Saddam was doing and tracked everything that went on in that country.  They also had spies within and had take escapees into their country...along with the high level intel.

You have swallowed the lie about the lie...but I do understand that.  People think intel is like on TV.  Someone runs in what a bunch of pictures and facts and everyone knows the truth.

In fact, intel is like a million piece jigsaw puzzel without the box.  As you put it together, you begin to get a sense of the picture, but at some point you have to decide if you are going to wait until all the pieces are together, or are you going to act?  You make the best call you can with what you have.

Saddam was a state sponsor of terrorism
Saddam never lived up to the agreements of the cease-fire.  To bad Clinton didn't enforce them
Saddam did not co-operate with the agreed upon UN inspections.
Contraband items including caches of chemical weapons (degraded) were found.
There were convoys into Syria and Lebanon...I believe that's why the Israelis went into the Bekah valley..for us. 

Strategically, Iraq was a better place for us to fight and we killed more AQ leaders there.  It would have been better to concentrate our efforts there after defeating the Taliban, and kept a presence there.  There was no strategic reason for staying in Afghanistan. 

So this know nothing president did it exactly backward and the world is on fire. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline gww

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2016, 02:21:51 pm »
I understand that Saddam was a bad guy.  I understand that Intel is what you get and sometimes is hard to verify.  I do believe that the bush administration had an agenda that had nothing to do with the world trade center and used a bad thing to do what they wanted to do before the world trade center happened. 

medical, gov jobs vers insurance job, I don't see much difference.  I was saying the freedom to not be stuck to benefits would start people doing more small business and things they like because they were not tied to having to keep their insurance.  As to privatizing everything.  Before they privatized mail service stamps were $0.03. (I recognize fewer letters are sent due to tech)  Privatizing prisons though sounding good is now being proven to cost more.  Sending me advertisements for foreign cars with my licence renewal when I am an auto worker even if it makes the mailing free does not sit well with me no matter what I have to pay for the mailing.  Contracting out defence plane production to air buss would make no sense to me regardless of cost. 

There will never be competition when medical schools grantee how any doctors there will be.

On an off statement maby of interest. My wife went in for a colostomy and throat scan.  They cut a growth out of her throat.  The insurance billed me $750.  I told them I have insurance and that the doctor had coded it wrong or it would have been paid.  After a year and me accidentally paying about $270 on the bill.  The doctor and the insurance Finlay got together and the insurance covered the bill 100%.  The insurance paid a total of $90 for the procedure.  Every time the doctor screws up on coding it goes this way.  Just look at the bills they submit and what actually gets paid.  I have not been to a doctor in probably 7 years.  I realize this is not because I am a good guy but more that I have just been luckier then most.  The doctors don't need the customer like you think they would if we payed out of our pockets.  If you try to make an appointment with a new doctor (If they are even taking new patients) it could take you months.  They don't need you and there is no competition the way the medical system is set up and it has nothing to do with who pays.

As far as what the other countries have in common with Iraq.  I was just countering you saying that if we had had a presence there that Isis may not have moved in with me taking your position to mean that America is so strong they wouldn't dare.  I was just showing where they did dare, because we might be that powerful but the people might want to do something bad enough that they don't care.

Cheers
gww

Offline Psparr

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2016, 02:54:54 pm »
Single payer = government run. Show me one thing the government runs efficiently?

Offline gww

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2016, 04:56:12 pm »
passpar
kathy brought up earlier how inefficiant brittons health care was but this guy says they are just as healthy and it is only costing $2000 per person there but cost $5000 per person here.

http://nontrivialpursuits.org/bureaucratic_waste.htm

Several sites say medicare is only going up 2% while private insurance is going up like 7% and the trend will continue.  Also they only have less then ten percent administration cost compared to like 17 percent for private insurance.

I never believe anybodies numbers too much because it is too easy to skew them. 

Its like if they did a study of pepsi and coke drinkers and found that 5 extra pepsi drinker had cancer they could put out that pepsi drinkers are more likily to get cancer.  Or if they say head injuries due to not wearing a helmet cost this much but leave out how much it cost if there is no head injury and a guy lives in an old folks home for 20 years..

I say that most of the things gov ends up doing are probly things no one else could do more efficiantly.  I remember kathy making the point that private industery had built roads before the government did.  I say there are still places that that happens but most of them are third world countries that would not live as well as we do.

Cheers
gww

Offline Psparr

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2016, 05:57:23 pm »
Medicare is only going up 2% because they only pay about half of the actual cost of any given procedure. Private insurers pick up the difference.

Offline kathyp

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2016, 07:07:42 pm »
Quote
kathy brought up earlier how inefficiant brittons health care was but this guy says they are just as healthy and it is only costing $2000 per person there but cost $5000 per person here.

Depends on how you calculate it.  Most people use WHO numbers.  The problem with WHO rankings is that they are dependent on each country self reporting and each country uses different calculations for different things. 
As an example, In the US if a baby is born alive and then dies, even if it is very premature, we call it an infant death.  In the UK, if a baby is born before 23 weeks(last I checked) even if born alive, it is called a miscarriage.  This can give the impressions that we have a much higher infant death rate.

One of the reasons the cost might be different is that they standard of care is different and care is rationed.  It's good if you are young and healthy.  It's less good if you are chronically ill, or old.  Medications that we consider standard here are not available there because of cost.  Procedures that are standard here, you either can't get or must wait months for. 

I had some non-specific belly pain.  I went to my doc and she sent me for a CT which was done in 2 days.  I had a huge kidney stone.  My sister, who lives in England had some non-specific belly pain.  She has yet to see anyone other than her GP and no tests have been done.  This was weeks ago.
Her FIL needed triple bypass surgery.  There was no surgeon available, but they feared he'd die if they sent him home.  He waited in hospital for 6 weeks before they found the doc and bed to do the surgery.  he didn't die, so I guess it's all good.
His wife, my sisters MIL, has diabetes.  The care she gets is the same care we gave diabetics 30 years ago.  She has constant sores, her blood sugar is never regulated, she's had amputations of parts of her feet. 
Her brother-in-laws wife has a history in her family of breast cancer.  After watching the horrible care her mother got, they bought very expensive private insurance just in case she needed it.  You must buy the insurance before you need it because it will not cover pre-existing conditions...imagine that!

One of the reasons private health care insurance is going up is that they are now covering the cost of all the "free" stuff in Obama care and taking care of sicker patients.  Those young people that were required to buy insurance are finding it cheaper to pay the fine than to buy the expensive policies.
  Medicare cost is not going up as much because of some of the cuts to doctors and hospitals ...which are making even more doctors flee medicare.  medicare patients are older, sicker, and require more time.  Money was taken out of Medicare to pay for Obamacare.

Most countries that have a national health care system have a private option.  Canada is an exception.  We already had that system here so that truly poor people were taken care of and there were public options even for working poor.  what we really needed to do was make better options available to the working poor and there were a number of proposals to do that.  Obamacare did not do this and messed everything up for everyone. 
Worse, if Hillary were to be able to implement the plan she proposed in the 90's, it would be a crime to pay for any care.  Both the doctor and patient would be limited to what the state paid for and nothing else allowed.    She may have learned from that failure, but you can bet she only learned not to articulate a plan like that, not that she should not implement one.


Quote
I say that most of the things gov ends up doing are probly things no one else could do more efficiantly.

There are a few things they do and are supposed to do.  among those things is not medicine.  They run the VA.  How's that working?


They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline herbhome

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Re: six scary little words
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2016, 09:29:39 pm »
ObamaCare is a misnomer for a system first proposed by Richard Nixon and implemented by Romney as governor. Its greatest fault is it rewards the very industry that is the problem in health care-the insurance industry. This industry is based on profit.
 Why does health care have to be based on profit? If we assume that privatizing is the fairest and most efficient way of caring for our citizens, how about all government services?
 Let's privatize law enforcement, there are numerous security companies that would gladly bid for the contract. Then only communities that could afford to pay would get the service.
 How about all roads and highways? If you can afford to maintain the road through your property, you get to keep it. Since all roads and highways are owned by corporations, we'll simply pay a toll or subscription fee set by the owners to use them.
 This great nation of ours needs a public health system. If people want a private room with filet mignon, turn down service and mint on the pillow I have no problem with that. Let them go to a for profit Trump Imperial Hospital. But for the rest of us give me a good doctor in a hospital ward and feed me crappy cafeteria food and I'll be fine.
Neill