Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...  (Read 4270 times)

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« on: July 10, 2016, 07:47:21 am »

In my view, pallets represent one of our greatest untapped resources for QD (Quick an' Dirty) methods of building.

Here's what I'm up to today - the weather's rubbish (yet again ...), so I'll be inside, trimming these stand legs to size before fettling them with some automotive body filler and lashings of paint.




This surely HAS to be the simplest - and cheapest - method of individual stand construction ever devised - and good for at least half a ton (I've checked).

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline Jim 134

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2746
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2016, 09:15:47 am »
       Takes up too much space in transportation or storage.  May work well in some operations..





                  BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2016, 09:57:12 am »
       Takes up too much space in transportation or storage.  May work well in some operations..

I've simply written and said what I'm up to today - I haven't suggested that these free-to-build stands are suitable for anything other than what I'm using them for - which is to replace the old car wheels I'm currently using underneath some of my nuc-building mother hives.

If not a single other person builds one of these, I really couldn't give a tinker's cuss - that's not why I've posted - but - if someone should indeed want to, then I'm more than willing to provide some construction hints.

I've noticed that there is a common tendency on beekeeping forums to interpret the subject of a personal idea as some kind of proposition that others should convert to a different way of doing things.  It was exactly the same when I posted about a Dadant-volume National hive I'm currently testing.  Weird.

LJ

« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 04:34:37 pm by little john »
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline cao

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 694
  • Gender: Male
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2016, 10:31:29 am »
I got some stands similar to those.  The seven hives in my backyard are on them.  Although I but them out of scrap lumber that I had Instead of pallets.  Also I added a another cross piece between the legs near the bottom.  I was afraid the legs would have a chance to wiggle or twist if the hive got bumped.  They work great for a few hives.  Yes I can see an issue with space and storage once you get more hives but they do weigh less than concrete blocks. 

little john keep posting on the different things your trying.  I for one enjoy reading about different ways people are keeping bees.
 
p.s.  How's the large frame hive going?

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2016, 11:08:02 am »
They'll sure look better than old car wheels and tyres - I've been feeling a bit embarrased when anyone calls, as the place is starting to look like a scrap yard !  (Is the same term used in the US ? - vehicle dismantlers etc.)

But for clarification - this is about knocking-up something halfway useful out of old pallets, for free - and that's not something a migratory operation with thousands of dollars invested in trucks and equipment could possibly be interested in.  This is (perhaps) of interest to the back-garden guy trying to survive on a tight budget.

If anyone does plan on fitting braces to the legs, fit them inside the legs, so that they will shed water easily.  I did try this a few years back on much thinner legs, and fitted them to the outside ...  and then had to apply a wedge of filler, to achieve rain run-off.

Almost forgot - these stands are quite tall (19-21"), as I want to get the boxes in question up to a comfortable working height.  All my 'regular' hives are near the ground, on plastic pallets.

Large-frame hive ?  No problems at all so far, but it's very early days of course.  Should have six large frames drawn by now (I'm feeding syrup whilst they're comb-building) - I'm due an inspection in the next day or two, so will update then
'best
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline divemaster1963

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
  • God Protect and watch over our sons and daughters.
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2016, 12:41:13 pm »
They look great!  I haven't thought about doing them that way. I'm using junk metal crates I got from ATV dealer and adding tops. They work great for my nucs. Good hight for working them. They come up to miidle thigh with the tops. Can look into a double deep nuc without bending over.

John

Recycling and repurposing things show how to start out low cost. I think these ideas are the best way to get people into beekeeping and not scaring then with high costs to start up.

Offline gww

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 632
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2016, 01:49:51 pm »
lj

I am currently using four cender blocks with two 4x4s about ten foot long layed on top.  My original ideal was they would be easier to level (foundationless) all at once.  In practice I needed two more cinder blocks and to pick better pole cause they are sagging in the center.

The things I like about them are it is easy to put wedges under the hive to level the hive.  I also like that they bring the hive up high enough that skunks probly have to show their bellys.

The thing I don't like is they are not movable and take up lots of room and you can not walk around the whole hive.  They hold about 4 or 5 hives.  If I get one more I would have to put a hive stand that would have 5 empty spots.


I believe I am going to make a few like you have and try them.  I won't have pallets but have lots of junk wood from my homemade sawmill for lots of reasons.  I pile it till it bugs me then put it on the side of the road for free or just burn it. 

I am but a hobiest and don't want to have another job selling bee products and so doing things cheeply as possible work well for my needs.  I did the blocks and post cause I thought it was easiest and cheepest.  I may have eventually thought of doing something like you are showing or I might not have.  Now I don't have to think of anything.  I will just do yours and see how I like it.

Keep showing things you are doing and I will steal the ideals that I like.
Thanks
gww

PS  I have seen your work and mine will be differrent.  There will be no paint or cosmetic improvements.  I will use them till they go bad and then burn and build more.  I always look for function before aesthetics.  I love looking at well kept stuff but am a bit more rustic myself, which has a certian type of charm also.

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2016, 04:57:54 pm »

Keep showing things you are doing and I will steal the ideals that I like.
Thanks
gww

PS  I have seen your work and mine will be differrent.  There will be no paint or cosmetic improvements.  I will use them till they go bad and then burn and build more.  I always look for function before aesthetics.  I love looking at well kept stuff but am a bit more rustic myself, which has a certian type of charm also.

Music to my ears ... :smile:

YES - take what you think may work for you, and disregard the rest.  Michael Bush doesn't paint either - works for him, but it wouldn't work for me.   Different people, different ways of working.

It isn't mandatory in life for everyone to sing the same tune from the same hymn sheet ... I do wish that some folks could embrace that basic concept.   

Wishing you all well ...
LJ




A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2016, 05:46:57 pm »
Recycling and repurposing things show how to start out low cost. I think these ideas are the best way to get people into beekeeping and not scaring then with high costs to start up.

Hi John - good words - couldn't agree more.  Take a look in a beekeeping supplies catalogue to give yourself a heart-attack !  Hundreds of 'must-have' gizmos being peddled to the uninitiated ...

I don't even use a hive tool (!)  I've always used a 1.5" paint scraper (so sharp I could shave with it) which is perfect for splitting propolis seals without damaging woodwork.  I'd never change from using that.  A large screwdriver for lifting frames - perfect for the job - and I can hold it vertically between Hoffman spacers when closing-up the frames, to prevent squashed bees.

You know, there are very few 'must-have' items that are truly essential (imo, of course) - a veil is one, and a good smoker is another.  Apart from those two items a person could build for themselves just about everything else.  I'm not saying that they should, or that it would make economic sense for a working person with an income.  But for someone who's broke, or otherwise down on their luck ... they could start beekeeping for next to nothing.

LJ


A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline Jim 134

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2746
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2016, 10:34:06 pm »


Music to my ears ... :smile:

YES - take what you think may work for you, and disregard the rest.  Michael Bush doesn't paint either - works for him, but it wouldn't work for me.   Different people, different ways of working.

It isn't mandatory in life for everyone to sing the same tune from the same hymn sheet ... I do wish that some folks could embrace that basic concept.   

Wishing you all well ...
LJ

      Does not Michael Bush hot wax dip his equipment to protect it from the weather.
      http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdipping.htm

            BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline gww

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 632
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2016, 10:58:19 pm »
LJ
Quote
You know, there are very few 'must-have' items that are truly essential (imo, of course) - a veil is one, and a good smoker is another.

I actually made my veil and smoker.  I won't say either one is "good" though.  The smoker is made out of stove pipe and does take two hands to really make smoke go where you want but has kept me going so far this year just fine.  I made two veils out of window screen.  One slips over a orange deer hunting hat and one is soft screen sewn to a straw has with a string to tie it around my waiste.  I will eventually get a differrent smoker but what I have is working well so no hurry.  I use a putty knife for a hive tool.  The one that is not strait but a U type figure going to the sharp part.

Quote
I'm not saying that they should, or that it would make economic sense for a working person with an income.

Or change what I quoted you on to "economic sense for a person who is working for an income from bees"

I am doing it for the learning and fun.  I don't want another job but want to see what I can do.  If I wanted to pay to have fun I would go to the movies.  Just want to do productive things with out making it a job.  Then time doesn't matter and it is just the experiance.  Don't get me wrong, I want to make honey, cause if I don't I have really did nothing.

I think lots of times if I tried to repeat what I have done over and over, It would cost more to do it this way cause you wouldn't have stuff laying around to use.  If you do have stuff laying around or can come up with it without to much hassel then, in my view, why buy the new.

It is all fun.
gww

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2016, 05:01:54 am »
I made two veils out of window screen.  One slips over a orange deer hunting hat and one is soft screen sewn to a straw has with a string to tie it around my waiste.

Nice one. 

Hats with brims don't feature much over here these days - although they used to be all the fashion - so I added a brim to a hard hat, and attached a cheap and nasty Chinese keep-net to it. 




It would be rubbish as a keep-net, but ideal to see through.  Even came with hoops and a draw-string !
LJ




A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline gww

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 632
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2016, 07:28:03 am »
LJ
The hats I used are probly 40 years old.  One I have used many a deer season and one my wife probly got for close to nothing on a yard sale.  I think she was buying it to give to a neibor but I used it before she could.

I tried posting pictures on this site once but my camera sucks,  I have no data plan and am not smart enough to transfer from my phone and I tried taking some from my computer but you have to resize the picks so I guess you have to take my word for it.

I also found on other thing that is not working on my computer on this forum.  I had to reload my computer with the original configuration.  When I forgot my pass word and punched the tab saying so, the site said it would send a email to me and it never does.  I finaly figured out my pass word but someday I won't be a member cause I won't remember and that function does not work on this forum and it says you are already signed up if you try to reregister.

I am probly illiterate in a lot of ways.
I do have some pics of things I have done on other sites but mostly on the sawmill I built but also a few on the long langs I made but am not using yet.

I am glad you have the picture thing figured out cause it is hard to steal ideals that you can't see.

Thanks for posting.
gww

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 16207
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2016, 09:56:06 am »
> Does not Michael Bush hot wax dip his equipment to protect it from the weather.
      http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdipping.htm

I was just not painting for quite a few years, but when I was increasing my equipment significantly I decided it was worth some effort to make it last longer.  So I cooked them in beeswax and rosin.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2016, 09:56:54 am »

I am glad you have the picture thing figured out cause it is hard to steal ideals that you can't see.

LOL  :smile:

There are quite a few ways of getting pictures onto here, but most that I've seen involve registering with somebody-or-other, and I'm a bit paranoid about attracting spam and viruses etc, so I use Tinypic  http://tinypic.com/  which will give you a link to the photograph to include in your post, without registering with anybody.

Just click on the above link, use Tinypic's 'Browse' buttion to find your photograph, select the size you want, and go for it.  Then Tinypic will ask you some fool question to prove you've a human.  Eventually, up will come a page with links on it.  Copy and paste the required link (bulletin board etc) into your post - and that's it.

Can't help with the password malarky, I'm a bit of a duffer on that stuff myself.  There must be someone on here who knows about such details ... and probably knows how to program a video recorder as well - that's something else in life I never got to figure out ...
LJ

A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline divemaster1963

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
  • God Protect and watch over our sons and daughters.
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2016, 11:36:41 am »
I just use a pad of school paper and write the site name then username then password. Put them in column form attached to clipboard and taped to inside of cabinet door. That's only way to remember all of then.  I hang calendar over it to hide it.


John

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2016, 05:08:01 am »

Ok - so here you go ... the finished articles ... ready to join the circus.  I don't suppose the bees will care one way or the other, but a little filler and a lick of paint takes care of my 'appearance' neurosis ... :




 :smile:
LJ


A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline Rurification

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 821
  • Gender: Female
    • Rurification
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2016, 09:42:02 am »
Beautiful!   I love that blue. 
Robin Edmundson
www.rurification.com

Beekeeping since 2012

Offline divemaster1963

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
  • God Protect and watch over our sons and daughters.
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2016, 12:23:41 pm »
Sweet. Now I have more projects for when I get back to health.
Thanks a lot. :angry:

I'm going nuts sitting still.

John

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2016, 03:42:15 pm »
Robin - yes, a lovely colour.  I suspect it's called 'Powder Blue', the colour a lot of food processing machinery is painted (which is how I came to buy a part-used tin of it) - that is, the equipment which isn't made from stainless steel.  Bright blue can be easily spotted amongst the colours of vegetables - so it's the colour chosen for Band-Aids, disposable gloves etc. in food factories.

John - if (and only if) it's not too personal, what's the health problem ?
I agree - sitting around can make a person 'stir-crazy' very quickly.  We had a terrible spring - rained nearly every day and I couldn't get on with anything - drove me absolutely nuts.

'best
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline divemaster1963

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
  • God Protect and watch over our sons and daughters.
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2016, 05:11:43 pm »
Robin - yes, a lovely colour.  I suspect it's called 'Powder Blue', the colour a lot of food processing machinery is painted (which is how I came to buy a part-used tin of it) - that is, the equipment which isn't made from stainless steel.  Bright blue can be easily spotted amongst the colours of vegetables - so it's the colour chosen for Band-Aids, disposable gloves etc. in food factories.

John - if (and only if) it's not too personal, what's the health problem ?
I agree - sitting around can make a person 'stir-crazy' very quickly.  We had a terrible spring - rained nearly every day and I couldn't get on with anything - drove me absolutely nuts.

'best
LJ


Not at all had surgery Thurs. 45 min operation turned into 4 and half hour surgery.

http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=48755.0

John

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2016, 09:15:36 am »
Strewth, John - that's some injury !  As others have already commented, it's now a question of getting your priorities in order.  And - even after your injuries are healed, it'll still take time to build-up your muscular strength again.  So - take it slow and easy. 

You might want to consider working your way through some of the old beekeeping books as a form of occupational therapy ?  I've got quite a few (mainly in .djvu format) which I've pulled off the Internet - I'll send 'em to you if the idea appeals.

Best wishes from across the pond for a full recovery.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline divemaster1963

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
  • God Protect and watch over our sons and daughters.
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2016, 10:24:24 am »
Thank-you I would love to checkout some of the old books. I have read a few years ago. I would not hurt to refresh my mind on some the old ways. 

Send me a PM.

John

Offline chester5731

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • Gender: Male
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2016, 01:23:57 pm »
I may have to try building some of those myself. One question is how do you keep them from sinking in the ground so they stay somewhat lever?

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1693
  • Gender: Male
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2016, 02:50:28 pm »



Not at all had surgery Thurs. 45 min operation turned into 4 and half hour surgery.

http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=48755.0

John

John,

In another string you said there would be multiple surgeries.  Any idea when and how many?

LJ, those are handsome stands.  Keep posting photos of your work, particularly stuff you make from scraps.

Gary
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline divemaster1963

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
  • God Protect and watch over our sons and daughters.
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2016, 03:37:38 pm »
Won't know till 27 th. Then more CT and MRIs  to locate more damage areas. They could not see a lot because of all the blood in shoulder and arm. They was able to get one muscle and two tendons back and place temporary thing for the cartilage that was destroyed. But as he said they
Have to go in stages. I'm hoping what others there maybe will be less drastic.
I'll keep everyone posted and thank-you all for the thoughts and prayers. Just a side note. Woke to helicopter flying over the property. Called police and DNR and ag. dept. They sprayed a cutover next door to kill off everything but the pines. Now I have lost all my crop here at this yard for the year. They failed to give public notice so I had police report made for the DNR and for possible losses. When it rain on me it more of cyclone than shower.

John

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2016, 07:36:17 am »
I may have to try building some of those myself. One question is how do you keep them from sinking in the ground so they stay somewhat lever?

Now that's a VERY good question ...

I use 'foot pads' made either from pallet plank offcuts, or whenever I come across a twisted plank, I dice it up into 6" lengths - as trying to work with twisted wood is more trouble than it's worth.

These pads, typically 6" x 4" serve two purposes - they stop the legs from sinking into soft ground, and also keep the ends of the legs from rotting due to being in contact with wet soil.
Even though I paint the leg ends with waterproof glue, then apply a couple of coats of paint on top of that, I still reckon that wood rot is possible if the ends are constantly damp.  I don't paint the pads  - they're scrap wood and thus disposable.

One other aspect of these stands I haven't mentioned, is that being angled, the top edges of the planks supporting the hive make only edge contact.  This prevents the 'wicking' of rainwater, which would otherwise occur if the plank tops were flat and held against another flat surface.  As with the foot pads, this is about the prevention of wood rot when using softwoods - especially the low quality stuff, which is all I tend to acquire.
LJ

A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline sc-bee

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2694
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2016, 08:31:02 pm »
Got me thinking how can I do a long run for a few hives?
John 3:16

Offline Jim 134

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2746
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2016, 06:25:05 am »
   
    Something  you may like to read bee for using pallets. For bee hives projects
     
     If you would like to read the markings on a pallets. You could tell what they were preserved with the wood. Here's a chart. Hope this helps you out in your quest for wood. If you read the very end of the chart. Australia and New Zealand can use both Heat and fumigated on the same pallet. It looks like Australia and New Zealand add Methyl Bromide upon arrival .
It appears that the pallets are not restamp for this chemical. All I can say buyer beware.
http://www.1001pallets.com/pallet-safety/

           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2016, 06:47:17 am »
Before people get too paranoid about using pallets which have been fumigated (perhaps some months or years ago) with Methyl Bromide, do bear in mind that it's a naturally occurring compound, with an estimated 56,000 tons of it being produced annually by marine organisms, and certain plants - particularly brassicas (sprouts, cabbages, cauliflowers) - producing small quantities of this gas.

And - is there any evidence whatsoever of even a single bee dying as a result of a beehive being made from pallets treated with Methyl Bromide ?  I don't know of any.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline Jim 134

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2746
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2016, 06:56:16 am »
Reply #28
This is for those who like to make educated choices. Apparently you've already made yours.


           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 07:26:13 am by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2016, 07:54:00 am »
Reply #28
This is for those who like to make educated choices. Apparently you've already made yours.

Educated ?  Don't make me laugh.

Methyl Bromide is a short-acting fumigant.  I've said this before, but those without even a basic grounding in organic chemistry are persisting in promoting this scare-story.

Quote
Methyl bromide is frequently used for fumigating timber, agricultural products, empty containers, food stuffs, and other agricultural produce. When fumigation is carried out with Methyl Bromide fumigant, there will not be any residual issues as aeration can be carried out easily. It is very effective in controlling insects at all stages; from egg to the adult stage.

As per International Plant Protection conversion Methyl bromide is an approved fumigant which can be used for treating export cargo containing wooden packing materials.

Fumigants only control existing infestations in the cargo they do not provide any residual protection against subsequent re-infestation. Consequently timber treated by fumigation must be packed in container or shipped within 21 days of treatment. During this 21 day period it should be stored safely or cross infestation may occur.

http://www.fumigationservice.com/methyl-bromide.htm

I wonder how many more times I must try to correct this b/s ?

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline Jim 134

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2746
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2016, 08:46:52 am »
I wonder why I would use a product that has been ban for inside house use.
(Methyl Bromide)  To be use in my bee hives?
Hope you have a good day.

https://www.nrdc.org/experts/jennifer-sass/methyl-bromide-pesticide-long-banned-indoor-home-uses-suspected-severely


      BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 08:41:38 am by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline Duane

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 175
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2016, 08:39:52 pm »
Maybe you could clue me in why when using a gas, no matter how toxic, to treat a product, and if the product does not absorb, adsorb, or otherwise contain the gas, why would it be of a concern?

As another example, you would not give your bees cyanide gas, but if someone else treated the lumber with cyanide gas prior to you building a box, would there be any concern?

A gas dissipates.  Now if it was a liquid, it would/could be a different story such as with arsenic soaked and impregnated lumber.

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 937
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2016, 04:31:05 am »
More on Methyl Bromide ...

When it comes to discussing issues related to Organic Chemistry - and Methyl Bromide of course is an organic chemical - I happen to be more qualified than Randy Oliver ... however, I'm mindful that I don't have the same credibility Randy has justifiably developed within beekeeping circles, thanks in part to his excellent website and the numerous in-depth articles published there - and so it was Randy Oliver I turned to for advice regarding how best to deal with this persistent nonsensical allegation of aged pallets which had previously been treated with Methyl Bromide still being considered hazardous to honey bees, many months after that treatment.

Although Randy shared my view that the prospect of any Methyl Bromide remaining within pallet timber a month or so after it's administration was zero, he suggested that an experiment be conducted to test for the off-gassing from any residual Methyl Bromide, together with a suitable control hive.

And so I duly set-up the experiment Randy had outlined, but using 'HT' (Heat Treated) pallet wood as a control, rather than an empty box. After seven days of intimate contact with 'MB' and 'HT' timbers, the two colonies under test were indistinguishable from each other, thus supporting our prediction that - in practice - there is no risk of off-gassing of any Methyl Bromide from treated pallets a month or two after it's initial application to them.

I received an email from Randy earlier this evening in which he writes:
Quote
Thanks XXXX,
As you likely guessed, I'm hardly surprised by your results.  Thanks for
taking the time to test--most people are too damn lazy to do so.

Thanks for the photos and experiment--I've saved them in case the
discussion ever comes up.

Best,
Randy

So there we have it - proof (if proof were ever really needed) that pallets treated 'once upon a time' with Methyl Bromide are - after testing - safe to use in the construction of bee hives.  Anyone who alleges otherwise will now need to provide concrete experimental evidence to support their claims. 

The creation of a scare story is not the same as providing factual information from which to make an educated choice.  The reason 'MB' is branded onto treated pallets is not as a warning to future users (which is how it appears to be perceived), but as confirmation that the wood has been treated and is thus insect-free at the time of manufacture and therefore safe for international transportation.

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Offline Jim 134

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2746
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2016, 04:11:27 pm »
You do realize EPA in United States is trying to phase out Methyl Bromide for air pollution. If It is safe as you say it is I wonder why they're trying to do this?

https://www.epa.gov/ods-phaseout/methyl-bromide



      BEE HAPPY  Jim 134 :)
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline divemaster1963

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Male
  • God Protect and watch over our sons and daughters.
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2016, 04:25:33 pm »
I have had very personal dealings with EPA in pass and am working with them right now. As with all things. Something newer with better results comes along and it changes. But as I was told by reps in EPA some new things  sometimes end up being worst. Because alot of the studies are after the fact. And EPA regs are based on percentage of advantages over disadvantages.

So it basically comes down to personal decision. Due what you think is best.


Good best of luck in you endeavors.

John

Bee happy

Offline gww

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 632
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2016, 09:26:11 pm »
Made something simular to yours.[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Cheers
gww

Offline Duane

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 175
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2016, 01:51:31 pm »
You do realize EPA in United States is trying to phase out Methyl Bromide for air pollution. If It is safe as you say it is I wonder why they're trying to do this?
I'm not sure anyone is saying Methyl Bromide is safe.  What I heard being said is that pallets which no longer have any toxic gas in them is safe.
Quote
So there we have it - proof (if proof were ever really needed) that pallets treated 'once upon a time' with Methyl Bromide are - after testing - safe to use in the construction of bee hives.
Pallets was the subject of the sentence, not Methyl Bromide.

Now, whether pallet manufacturers or anyone else should use Methyl Bromide for treating against insects is a whole other issue regarding the environment.  But that's not what's being discussed, about using such past treated, and no longer contaminated, pallets for bee keeping.

Offline minz

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 184
  • Gender: Male
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2016, 09:14:24 pm »
Looks pretty good to me but where are the triangles? Triangles give massive strength and keep it from racking without relying on the fasteners or glue.  A piece of wood from corner to center on each side increases the strength exponentially.  Any bridge, truss or frame uses triangles to reduce the amount of material to add strength.  JM2C
Poor decisions make the best stories.

Offline gww

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 632
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2016, 09:49:26 pm »
minz
Quote
Looks pretty good to me but where are the triangles? Triangles give massive strength and keep it from racking without relying on the fasteners or glue.  A piece of wood from corner to center on each side increases the strength exponentially.  Any bridge, truss or frame uses triangles to reduce the amount of material to add strength.

No wonder I go through so many screws :grin:.  I was just using the junk I can't really build anything with.  4x4s that either bowed bad or had rot in some portion and boards that may not have gotten cut at a consitant thickness or some other flaw.  I was thinking the ideal was to use stuff that would be firewood or waste if not used in some way.  This seemed like a good use for some of it.

I do wish I were a better carpender and builder though.  I do every thing that I can do with a chainsaw.
Cheers
gww

Offline sawdstmakr

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 7031
  • Gender: Male
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2016, 11:30:54 pm »
Looks pretty good to me but where are the triangles? Triangles give massive strength and keep it from racking without relying on the fasteners or glue.  A piece of wood from corner to center on each side increases the strength exponentially.  Any bridge, truss or frame uses triangles to reduce the amount of material to add strength.  JM2C
It is called the golden x. In your house the frame is very weak and the plywood by itself is very weak but the plywood over the frame makes the golden x and makes your walls very strong. 
Look at any cell tower. It is all made up of a frame with "X"s providing the strength.
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline minz

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 184
  • Gender: Male
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2016, 12:29:56 pm »
And the further you get away from the joint the more force you excerpt on it (force times distance). That is why you rarely see construction with ends that are unsupported like the legs (further the triangle goes down the leg the stronger).
Also if you put a miter (cut an angle) and tuck it under the top board there would be no moving it in a compression movement regardless of how many fasteners you used for that joint.
Poor decisions make the best stories.

Offline Acebird

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2713
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2016, 12:55:14 pm »
It appears that LJ has made himself a stand using table like construction.  A table only needs to be as strong as the load it carries.  The fact that the stand elevates the hives it is unlikely he will have any trouble with weight because he won't let the hive get out of reach.  So yes there are stronger geometries that will perform better but it doesn't have to.

Now on the discussion of out gassing methyl bromide from the pallets there must be a safety standard already in place or you would not be allowed to bring them into a building.  I am not a chemist, far from it but I do know there are meters that measure out-gassing of plastic parts or the sterilization of parts by ETO method.  It doesn't seem as though you would have to put bees in a box to prove the out-gassing of methyl bromide after so many days of treatment.
All my hives are on pallets and I don't know or care if they have been treated.  The bees have no problem crawling all over them.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline minz

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 184
  • Gender: Male
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2016, 05:21:39 pm »
It appears that LJ has made himself a stand using table like construction.  A table only needs to be as strong as the load it carries.  The fact that the stand elevates the hives it is unlikely he will have any trouble with weight because he won't let the hive get out of reach.  So yes there are stronger geometries that will perform better but it doesn't have to.

Using that theory a piece of plywood nailed to a single board would be perfectly fine balanced in the field. I could demonstrate that with something called ?statics?.  Obviously theory and practical observation are different.
I only meant to point out that if you have free pallet wood adding an additional piece at an angle would be very beneficial.
Poor decisions make the best stories.

Offline Acebird

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2713
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: A touch of Pallet Engineering ...
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2016, 09:05:16 pm »
And I merely stated it would carry a greater load but it is not necessary.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it