Why not regular fumings of oxalic?

[Jim134]

In my opinion Kurt Webster Is miles a head of all the other treatment free beekeepers in the USA.  There are many other good treatment free beekeepers in New England.
I have seen some recent articles written by Kurt Webster and I hope he doesn't stop again.


          BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :)

[Acebird]

I'll offer a quote from Kirk Webster:

I couldn't even come close to saying it any better.  So I won't even try.

[Jim134]

     If you would like to read some of Kurt Webster's articles here you go. Remember one thing any comments you make on this page may or may not see by Kurt. He does not have a computer.


    http://kirkwebster.com/


            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Dallasbeek]

How does he have a website without a computer???

Reading just a little bit of his site-- looks like a bit of wishful thinking, but I'll read more.  Since he's done this for years, I'm open to believing he's onto something.  That may be wishful thinking on my part.

[GSF]

Ignorance is the lack of knowledge, stupidity is the inability to use that knowledge.

That being said I use the OA vaporizer in the fall and will continue to do so until time and knowledge permits me to go down the successful path that I desire. It seems like I've been trying to put 5 gallons of lard in a three gallon bucket for years. (playing catch up) We are slowly trimming the time consuming items out of our lives - thank God.

[Acebird]

How does he have a website without a computer???

You can have a back account without owning a bank.

[Michael Bush]

>I couldn't even come close to saying it any better.  So I won't even try.

That's why I didn't try...

>How does he have a website without a computer???

He has friends who have computers.  I think he actually does have a computer.  He does not have internet.  He does not have a cell phone... The articles were mostly published in bee magazines and then posted to make them available.

[Jim134]

Kurt Webster does have an open house usually about twice a year. I see I missed the first one this year. This is only about an hour and a half where I live. Well worth my time.
         
                  Here is the schedule for 2016


Two open house field days: April 23, and July 23, 2016; rain or shine--9:00 AM to 4:00 PM, rain or shine.   1437 South Street, New Haven, Vt. 05472

      These are open to the public and there is no charge or pre-registration. The dates were chosen to show the apiary at its apparent weak point (April) and its apparent strong point (July). (Those who are gathering evidence to show that commercial beekeeping without treatments is impossible will probably want to come in April; those already convinced that this type of beekeeping is easy and always good news should come in July. For all others with a serious interest, I recommend coming to both.) Hopefully, these are relaxed, informal events which can accommodate beekeepers of all skill and experience levels. Weather permitting, we'll be able to examine colonies and describe the process of making spring and summer nucs. There should be plenty of time for both beginner and advanced questions and discussions. Very likely we will visit another beeyard in addition to the home farm. Bring a veil, bag lunch and some water to drink, and rain gear if the weather is inclement.


                BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[KPF]

I like the idea. Here's my problem. Well, maybe it's not a problem but rather my own ignorance. I get the fact of letting evolution work its way out. Keep bees, propagate the survivors, and eventually the bees figure it out. They are, after all, insects, and they can breed quickly and develop resistance just as easily as varroa can develop resistance to miticides.  But how practical is it for a hobbyist with 2-3 hives to maintain his or her stock with nucs?  Keep some hives, raise some nucs, and replace the dead hives with the nucs next year. Is that the strategy? And I suspect you have to get kind of good a queen rearing, because what sense does it make buying queens from some other location?  If you maintain your own stock and replenish with nucs, my guess is you should cultivate your own supply of queens descended from survivors. How easy is this to do with 3 hives? (I don't mean "easy" as in "little effort." I mean easy from the standpoint of having a good chance of keeping the train going with only a few hives and one pair of hands.)

Tell me more. You almost have a convert here. Spirit is willing, but the skill is weak.

[Acebird]

How easy is this to do with 3 hives? (I don't mean "easy" as in "little effort." I mean easy from the standpoint of having a good chance of keeping the train going with only a few hives and one pair of hands.)

If I would stop making stupid mistakes it would be pretty easy for me.  I do not know if I got lucky from the start and got the right genetics from the start or if I live in a location where these genetics already exist.  In the north (and you live in the north) you automatically get a winter brood break that helps to control varroa.  I do not bother with nucs (too much effort).  I try to run three full size hives and usually split in the spring.  This will most likely net you more than 3 full size hives that you can sell or give away.  In a bad year you will have less then three and a good year you will have more than three.  If you are recovering from a bad year you may not get as much honey as you want so just up your average count to four.
In the future we will be moving to FL and I anticipate a completely different ball game.  I probably will not be able to let the hives make their own queen due to AHB genetics.  I won't have the advantage of a winter brood break and SHB will be another challenge I will have to learn.  But if I have bees in FL I will not bomb them with chemicals.  That is a promise.

[OldMech]

The local inspector snorted his coffee out his nose when he looked at my labels.. that I printed myself.. the label had the ingredients, etc, etc, and approved for use in hives for the treatment of mites etc..  all the legal technical looking stuff, and the purity, which is 99.6%... he nodded his head after wiping his face and nodded...
   "You know, NO ONE has done this yet and I have been wondering why. this meets the letter of the law at least for the moment."

   Of course, the local inspector has known I used OAV to bleach my frames for a few years now. Who is to say that you cant still do the same with the stuff that is not correctly labeled?

   As far as the ops question of treating regularly...    Why? What purpose will it serve?  I treat when the weather is COMFORTABLE for me to go out and do it, rather than blowing snow about in a 30 mph wind..  You can find plenty of information on OAV testing... for instance;
   Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology Ltd. says: ?We treated several colonies for 3 months during winter, once a week with the vaporizer and all colonies survived.? ?With brood, colonies can be treated with the right amount of OA 3 to 4 times, a week apart; there is no harm to bees, queen or brood.?

   I treat three times. twice, one week apart and a third time at week four, then I dont have to treat any more until late summer early fall.. treat the same way, and its DONE until next year..  I really dont want to go out and treat ALL of my hives every month, though from experience, AND what I have read of the studies done, that I have seen no evidence it will cause any problems..     
   I have also seen 0 evidence that the OAV treatments hurt open brood in any manner. I have not lost open brood, have not seen it being removed from the hives, nor have I seen evidence of damaged brood in fully filled frames. Frames that are wall to wall open brood.   NOW, since I do NOT treat every week, or even every month, I cant stick my neck out and say that treating that much would NOT cause harm, I only know that the spring and fall treatments have never caused harm.....  WITH the 99.6% pure OA that I use.

   In all honesty, I am a little confused by the resistance, concern, and animosity that I see toward OAV, but then, I try to use common sense both in application frequency and care during application. OAV has worked VERY well for me, from the first time I used it to bleach my frames to this day. Perhaps, it is the common sense thing working in my favor?  My wife claims I have no common sense, no matter how much I try to convince her that I do. Be that as it may, I am thankful for OAV. I use it like I do, because it works. I see no reason to modify, change, increase, decrease, or go out in the COLD and wind to apply it.  So long as the results are clear, obvious, plain, and always excellent, I will continue the method I have adopted.
   

[Acebird]

   I treat three times. twice, one week apart and a third time at week four, then I dont have to treat any more until late summer early fall.. treat the same way, and its DONE until next year..  I really dont want to go out and treat ALL of my hives every month, though from experience, AND what I have read of the studies done, that I have seen no evidence it will cause any problems..     
 

You are living a pipe dream.  Enjoy the ride.

[OldMech]

If your going to be an idiot by saying something like that, then explain why so I can prove your an idiot, or I am.

[Acebird]

Well you are treating with an insecticide to kill a bug on a bug and then decide (I don't want to use the word idiot) where common sense lies.

[buzzbee]

Folks, best to calm this down now. When things break down to name calling and attacking other members, it is only a short step to a permanent exit. We  never like doing this, but reserve it for when people do not comply with the rules.

[OldMech]

Since when is Oxalic classified as an insecticide? It does no harm to the bees and leaves no residue in the wax. In fact the hive already has OA in it naturally, as does Honey. Oxalic is an ACID, hence the reason we call it Oxalic Acid.

   Most pesticides work by affecting the nervous system of the insect. The pesticide interrupts the information being sent by neurotransmitters in the synapses. The chemical produced by the body used to send information through the synapses is called acetycholine. An enzyme called cholinesterase binds with acetycholine and allows muscles to rest.
   In a body that is working normally, the acetycholine sends messages to the muscles through the synapses. Cholinesterase keeps the amount of acetycholine at an acceptable level, which controls the stimulation. When a pesticide is introduced at a lethal dosage for a particular body, the cholinesterase is affected, keeping it from binding with the acetycholine. When this happens, the muscles are over-stimulated which will lead to paralysis and death.


   When used as directed, OAV does not harm the queen, the bees or the brood! And it does not contaminate the comb as poisons do..........
   https://www.dadant.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2011/09/Dadant_OxalicAcidVaporizer_QandA.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,-217,723

    There are a few places you can find the research if you look. As I understand it, they have been using OAV for 20+ years to treat hives overseas with no signs of becoming resistant/immune with damage to bees/brood/comb etc..   Where as just about every poison we had been using was quite hard on bees, just as was said, using a pesticide/insecticide to kill a little insect on a big insect. Within days of treatment, the "BEES" will remove the residual OA crystals from the hive. (Emphasis mine)

   This will be (is) my fifth year using OAV, and it is as effective now as it was the first time I used it.   My bees do not cluster on the front porch when I treat, the queen does not stop laying, no brood gets hauled out, etc...

    There are apparently many thousands of beekeepers living the pipe dream, and they have been doing so for over 20 years now. I get annoyed when someone dislikes something without having an informed reason for doing so.  For me it falls into the same category as someone saying,  "NEVER feed your bees!" Or "NEVER treat your bees! It isnt natural!"   Statements like that, and the one above hurt new beekeepers. I have had my fill of would have been beekeepers telling me they gave up when their bees died.  I see OAV as a godsend to new beekeepers. It is easy to use with little chance of harming the bees like a misapplication of pesticide strips can and do.
   It is my mission in life to see new beekeepers succeed in their first year. After that, if they want to stop treating, feeding, winterizing and caring for their bees, well, at least they may have a better understanding of why their bees died.

     And, If you need to ban me then that is your choice. I dont NEED to be here, but I usually enjoy trying to help. Common sense to me means your at least a little bit informed about a subject before you degrade it, and possibly turn someone away from it for no good reason.
 

You are living a pipe dream.  Enjoy the ride.


   How was that constructive or helpful? Informative?  I see it as an attack since it is none of the other things.
   Scott

[little john]

There seems to be some confusion here. Varroa is NOT an internal DISEASE of bees, it is an external PARASITE of bees - there is a difference.

The analogy I often use when discussing this issue is that of a monkey - which might be carrying the deadly Ebola Virus - sitting on your shoulder.  In order to save your life, I shoot the monkey off your shoulder, without any harm being inflicted on yourself.

Question: Have I shot YOU or have I shot the MONKEY ?


When administering OAV, one is NOT treating BEES - one is treating MITES.  OA functions as a miticide, not an insecticide.

LJ

[Michael Bush]

Most of the things being used as acaracides used to be labeled as insecticides... there is not that much difference systemically or anatomically between one and the other.  Pretty much the things that kill mites without killing bees is only because of the size of the mite and the size of the bee.  If it kills the mite, it damages the bee.  You are NOT shooting the mite off of the bee.  You are exposing the bee to the same caustic acid you are exposing the mite to.

[KPF]

How easy is this to do with 3 hives? (I don't mean "easy" as in "little effort." I mean easy from the standpoint of having a good chance of keeping the train going with only a few hives and one pair of hands.)

If I would stop making stupid mistakes it would be pretty easy for me.  I do not know if I got lucky from the start and got the right genetics from the start or if I live in a location where these genetics already exist.  In the north (and you live in the north) you automatically get a winter brood break that helps to control varroa.  I do not bother with nucs (too much effort).  I try to run three full size hives and usually split in the spring.  This will most likely net you more than 3 full size hives that you can sell or give away.  In a bad year you will have less then three and a good year you will have more than three.  If you are recovering from a bad year you may not get as much honey as you want so just up your average count to four.
In the future we will be moving to FL and I anticipate a completely different ball game.  I probably will not be able to let the hives make their own queen due to AHB genetics.  I won't have the advantage of a winter brood break and SHB will be another challenge I will have to learn.  But if I have bees in FL I will not bomb them with chemicals.  That is a promise.

Tell me more about letting them raise their own queens. Do you let supersedure and swarming happen naturally or do you do any grafting and control of the process?  I had one hive swarm last summer and it did not do well thereafter. I wonder if the drone population in my area was just too small to result in a successful mating of the new queen.

[Acebird]

When administering OAV, one is NOT treating BEES - one is treating MITES.  OA functions as a miticide, not an insecticide.
LJ

LJ,  When you spray bug repellent on your skin it's intent is to repel bugs that bite you.  Unfortunately the skin will absorb some of the chemical.  There is no immediate negative reaction from using the spray (for most of the population) so we label it as no harm done to humans.
OAV has been used in Europe for 20 years.  How come all the mites are not dead?  Twenty years of use and the mites are still surviving.  How can you call that effective?  When you use the chemical you have to wear a mask because the vapors can drop you dead.  So this acid can kill mites, kill humans, but doesn't do a darn thing to a honeybee.  That is something I cannot accept.  This is what I am labeling as a pipe dream.  I did not intend to attack anyone.
I think new beekeepers have the right to read opposing views on any subject and determine what course of action is right for them.
My apologies to anyone who feels my comments were an attack.