Small cell with a package?

[tjsegla]

Last year I decided to purchase a nuc of small cell bees to combat mites. Needless to say they died. I have not had time to do an autopsy but will investigate. My question is what would happen if I purchased a package  and started them on the small cell foundation? I have a bunch of small cell foundation and do not want to just not use it. I read about regression but really do not want to purchase more foundation.

[little john]

I don't understand the "needless to say" bit - but no doubt you will expand on that ?

You're right to flag this up as being a potential problem.  On another thread, MB listed "wrong cell size" as being one reason not to buy NUCs rather than packages - which of course is rubbish. "Wrong cell size" is a problem which can occur with ANY importation into an existing apiary, whether this is a swarm, a Nuc, or - as you are focussing on - with a package.

To be blunt - you can't install a package (or any other form of importation of bees) onto existing 'small-cell' combs, as the bees simply won't fit - and might just decide to make a fresh start somewhere else - UNLESS you can be sure that the bees you are receiving are 'small-cell' also.  They MIGHT decide to re-work the combs, or the foundation you give them - but them again, they might not - so is it worth taking that risk ?

What you do now depends on your eventual goal: do you want to run small-cell bees or not ?  If you do, then regress the bees at their own pace via foundationless combs until you get where you want to be. If you don't, then you might as well trade your unused foundation against the regular equivalent.

Are you in contact with any other beekeepers in your immediate area ?  There may be a solution to your dilemma there.

LJ

[tjsegla]

Thanks for replying just ignore the "needless to say". You answered what I was thinking on how the bees would respond to the small cell foundation.

[tjc1]

This is interesting - I hadn't given any thought to this, but I introduced small cell foundation a couple of years ago, then went to gradually removing old large-cell foundation-based comb while putting any new frames in foundationless so the bees could make what they saw fit. So I suppose I have a mix now. Last year I installed two packages on this mixed bag of comb (from hives that died that winter). Both hives took off fast and did well - the mix didn't seem to make any difference... In any case, I thought that you could just start using small cell foundation whenever - never heard or thought that you'd have to order small cell bees to go with.

[little john]

I thought that you could just start using small cell foundation whenever - never heard or thought that you'd have to order small cell bees to go with.

It's the 'won't fit' problem which is the rationale behind performing regression in a step-wise manner.

By the sound of things, you had enough cells on your "mixed bag of combs" for their acceptance.  With foundationless comb, there will always be a small spread of sizes anyway - as natural combs aren't as regular in their cell-sizes as many people assume.

It may be worth commenting that this so-called 'small-cell' incompatability issue is completely man-made.  The size which is commonly called 'small-cell' (suggesting that it's something unusual and/or irregular) is actually natural cell size.  It's the 'standard' stuff which really ought (imo) to be described as 'large-cell size' - which many people have grown up with, and so assume that it's what the bees are supposed to work with.

I first became acutely aware of cell sizes when trying to figure out why a Nicot Cupkit laying cage wasn't producing the goods for many beekeepers (including myself), and yet many were having great success with them.  I set about trying to solve this mystery, and eventually discovered that the cell size that Nicot has chosen is 5.6mm, which is neither worker, nor drone size - hence my queens (which are used to 4.9mm worker cells) appear to have been confused by this.

Queens which normally lay in 5.4(ish)mm worker cells, presumably don't notice the difference - so a provisional explanation (all other aspects being equal) is that those using conventional foundation will have success with the laying cage, whereas those using 4.9mm cells will have very mixed results.

To confirm these suspicions, I've modified a Nicot Cupkit laying cage to 5.0mm (+/- 0.1mm) cell size, and will be reporting on what results later on this year.  Here's hoping ...

LJ

[Michael Bush]

You can put them on the drawn comb you already have.  By the time they have filled that with brood you'll soon be getting smaller bees.  I'd use the small cell foundation.  They should have not trouble once bees are emerging from the drawn comb.

[tjsegla]

Okay so just to make sure I understand I will be okay with installing the package. I will not need to purchase more foundation to regress them? If they were already established in a hive then that would be a problem?

[Michael Bush]

>Okay so just to make sure I understand I will be okay with installing the package. I will not need to purchase more foundation to regress them?

I'm saying I would put them on the drawn comb from the dead colony.  It is already drawn.

> If they were already established in a hive then that would be a problem?

No.  It would not be a problem.  It would take a bit more time to get them off of large cell comb if that's what they were on.  But it would not be a problem per se.

[tjsegla]

Thanks for your patience . I always second guess my self and make sure I understand it. I usually just read these forums and rarely ask anything

[Linda M.]

Hi - I guess maybe I'm not sure on these answers to the small cell foundation. I have two packages coming from Kelley's next month. My plan is all foundationless frames but two frames with small cell in the off center spots - like as followed: (I use 8 frame deeps). I'm going to put both outer frames as foundationless (=4) and the two center as foundationless (=6) and the left over two spots use SCF frames. Maybe they'll get the idea with the SCF that they'll build that with it in there if they happen to be larger bees.......sound logical or not? Also a way for the bees to get to the top quicker with the foundation in there. Just my thinking - I know some of you probably are thinking "just use all foundationless", I just thought I'd do it to see what happens.
 I have Russian hybrids coming from Kelley's. I'm not sure what I have now - must be mutt bees.....? Some of the bees seem to be large and others are small and almost all black (through out all 4 hives I have). I have the black plastic frames mixed with wood frames (I think with) medium cell foundation. This is my second year, so I didn't know too much on cell size in the beginning. All four hives made it through the winter so far - despite our weather here in NY (70 deg last week to 12 deg this week).

[Michael Bush]

>My plan is all foundationless frames but two frames with small cell in the off center spots - like as followed: (I use 8 frame deeps). I'm going to put both outer frames as foundationless (=4) and the two center as foundationless (=6) and the left over two spots use SCF frames. Maybe they'll get the idea with the SCF that they'll build that with it in there if they happen to be larger bees.......sound logical or not? Also a way for the bees to get to the top quicker with the foundation in there. Just my thinking - I know some of you probably are thinking "just use all foundationless", I just thought I'd do it to see what happens.

The bees will do whatever they like and probably will not do what you want them to do.  However it should work fine.  They will likely draw the foundationless in the center first (though it could be on the south side first) and then they will draw the small cell because they don't want a gap in the brood nest, but since they are unlikely to have any smaller bees yet, they will likely draw it about 5.1mm.  Not that I haven't seen a package drawn as small as 4.7mm but if they were indeed on 5.4mm (they could have been on a different size) they will likely draw 5.1mm.  In the end it will work out.

> I have Russian hybrids coming from Kelley's. I'm not sure what I have now - must be mutt bees.....? Some of the bees seem to be large and others are small and almost all black (through out all 4 hives I have).

Newly emerged bees are always smaller than old field bees.

> I have the black plastic frames mixed with wood frames (I think with) medium cell foundation.

Pierco varies in size from one depth to another and from sheets to frames.  They could be as small as 5.2mm and as large as 5.3mm.

[LKBruns]

I started two packages on large cell and two on small cell goundation last spring.

I did not notice a difference in how fast they drew out the foundation.  I also did not notice a difference in mite drops on the board under my screened bottom board.