Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Hive Construction ?'s  (Read 3486 times)

Offline derekm

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 556
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2016, 08:50:51 am »
make a former that fits the inside. Use this to build the boxes around. Make the former true and square out of good straight wood and  brace it heavily  so it doesnt move out of square.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline tycrnp

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 154
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2017, 01:16:20 am »
So no one really commented that they have used Kreg (or similar) system for joints. We are new to hive making and thinking about using them. Any thoughts from those of you who are much more experienced?

Offline little john

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1043
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2017, 03:16:50 am »
Kreg ?  Had to look that up ... 
And - for anyone not familiar with 'Kreg' - it's a system based around a pocket-hole jig which looks ideal for domestic joinery work - but for the construction of beehives there's a problem with the pocket-hole remaining after each screw has been driven home.  These holes will need to be filled: either with a short length of suitable diameter dowel rod which will then require trimming flush; or by the use of some type of wood filler.  Either of these methods would complicate and extend the otherwise simple and fast assembly time of the Kreg system.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline cao

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 714
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2017, 07:05:09 pm »
If you put the pockets on the inside of the box, you wouldn't have to fill them.  The bees would eventually fill them with propolis.  I have a set of the Kreg jigs for making the pocket holes.  I don't use the much in my woodworking.  My thoughts is that it would work but the screws aren't cheap.  I've found that butt joints with cheap deck screws work just fine.  If you don't mind the extra cost they would leave the outside looking better if you wanted a fancier hive.  When you are making enough boxes for 30-40 hives every little bit of saving goes a long way.

Offline Bush_84

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 511
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2017, 01:52:16 am »
If you have a table saw that can take a dado blade things aren't difficult from there.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Box-finger-joint-jig/

I started with butt joints six years ago and my boxes are starting to fall apart. Building box joints from here on out.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline little john

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1043
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2017, 06:42:10 am »
If you put the pockets on the inside of the box, you wouldn't have to fill them.  The bees would eventually fill them with propolis. 

The claim that bees will propolise the walls of their hives is one of the most enduring myths in beekeeping, as for all intents and purposes they will only propolise those gaps which are causing draughts, and structures towards the tops of their combs.  I have several hives which have serious wall imperfections, and for years the bees have ignored them. 

Here's a shot of an experimental Long Hive I took before making major alterations to it - you may notice a few lines of propolis where the sides of the Thermal Curtain (Follower Board) were located, but there's absolutely no coating of propolis on the box walls themselves - and that's after 6 years of use.



At times, the inside of a beehive is one of the wettest environments imaginable, which is why I now paint the insides of boxes with a lot more care than I do the outside.
So I disagree regarding the leaving of holes. I'd be very concerned that leaving holes in the interior walls would cause water to constantly be held there, and possibly start rotting - that is, if soft wood was used (which is what I use) for box construction.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline Captain776

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 236
  • Gender: Male
  • Captain
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2017, 09:58:52 am »
I use butt joints, 100% waterproof glue and screws. Using screws saves tying-up cramps. I prefer to paint 'em both inside and out - with whatever colour happens to be on the brush. Edges waxed to stop sticking.

I used to make boxes using pallet wood - which is mostly pine - but I've just finished a batch of nuc boxes which started-off as Mann-Lake glued cedar brood boxes, which were then cut in half:



New sides were then added using Oregon Pine Studding recovered from pallets, with glued and screwed butt joints, and grooves cut into the inner sides for feeder-dividers so that they can be used either as 5-frame nucs or as dual half-size-frame mating nucs.



Polyester filler was applied, sanded down and the boxes finally painted with industrial floor paint.



I'm pleased with the results and will be making a lot more in the same way. Starting-off with commercially-made flat-pack boxes ensures that the boxes are totally square and without any twist. When taking construction time into account, including that for the recovery of timber from pallets, this method is a far more economical route to adopt (for me) than making boxes completely from scratch using reclaimed wood.

But I'll continue to make bases, roofs, feeder shells etc from pallet wood.

LJ


Nice job.
Bought my first NUC April 7, 2016.
Like all you when you first started, I am fascinated with beginning Beekeeping and trying to learn all I can.
I retired May 2015 and have added this to my short list of hobbies.

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3005
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2017, 03:38:44 pm »
So far I've always done either butt joints (screwed) or rabbet joints.  But recently I bought this and plan to use it next time:
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KZM25QA?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

Because the lock joint will be end grain I would expect it to be weak.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Online sawdstmakr

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 7246
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2017, 01:14:02 pm »
So far I've always done either butt joints (screwed) or rabbet joints.  But recently I bought this and plan to use it next time:
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KZM25QA?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

Because the lock joint will be end grain I would expect it to be weak.
They make good joints because it cuts enough of an angle to allow good mating services. It ends up with almost face grain to face grain.

I used to make Navy retirement boxes, the type with the folded flag in the top. They were all cut with a 45 degree angle and glued, no fasteners. The joints were very strong, never had one fail. I did strength tests when I started to make sure they would not break once sold. This bit is much better at increasing the strength of the glue joint over a straight 45 degree cut.
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline Peter McDowell

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2017, 05:08:27 pm »
Little John, different bees in different locations do different things. Our bees propolise everything inside our hives. walls, ceiling, floor. Also all surfaces on the frames along with all joints and the holes in the frames where wires were meant to go. So here it is not a myth but a fact.

Offline paus

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 186
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2017, 05:48:44 pm »
I have boxes that I made with finger joint, both compound and double compound, pocket hole, and butt joint. All are screwed except finger joint,  and most are pocket hole screwed.  I am going to make the next boxes using drawer joint with a router or shaper.  I

Offline paus

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 186
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2017, 06:25:59 pm »
continued from last OH OH post , I use pocket hole screws on most of these boxes.  To make my compound and double compound  dado  joints I use 3/8" dado blade set 3/8' high. 
for dado blades I buy  71/4" on sale and make sure they are the same make and style. The teeth have to be alternately spaced, I use paper shims to get the correct width.  These dado joints are not furniture quality but the Ladies in the hives don't care

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3005
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2017, 08:15:27 pm »
This bit is much better at increasing the strength of the glue joint over a straight 45 degree cut.
I can see where the geometry makes it easier to clamp but if a proper clamping fixture was made I don't think the joint would test out like you think.  Keep in mind this bit was made for furniture (hardwood) not bee boxes (soft wood).
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline little john

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1043
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2017, 06:22:49 am »
Little John, different bees in different locations do different things. Our bees propolise everything inside our hives. walls, ceiling, floor. Also all surfaces on the frames along with all joints and the holes in the frames where wires were meant to go. So here it is not a myth but a fact.

Point taken.  I speak only from my own experience, as it would appear you also do yourself.  But - read on ...

On reflection, it may be relevant that the hive I referred to was made from two layers of 'commercial-grade' plywood sandwiched together. (not a method I ever repeated, or would particularly recommend) This plywood would have been formed using smooth moulds and under considerable pressure using urea-formaldehyde glue which resulted in the formation of a glassy-smooth and fully water-resistant surface.  It's not particularly attractive stuff - such as plywood made with a high quality veneer on one side.

During construction of the hive, the two layers of plywood were held together with a generous number of alternating wood screws set-out 'domino-style', with their exposed tips duly abraded away, and together with their recessed screw heads, treated to a dab of molten wax. (these being the days before I discovered 100% waterproof glue ...)

As beekeepers, we tend to regard the application of propolis as being a bit of a nuisance, and something to be avoided if at all possible.  But - from the bees' point-of-view it represents an enormous amount of energy invested, both in the collection of the various tree gums and other materials used, and the time and effort taken in identifying those places where it is to be applied.

Thus - what purpose would have been served by bees propolising any part of this surface - which was already glassy-smooth and waterproof ?

Taking this a step further, you may just be able to see from my earlier post re: nuc-construction which Captain776 has just quoted from (BTW, thanks for the kind words, Captain779), that I paint the insides of my bee boxes as well as the outsides.  Indeed, I've gradually formed the opinion that painting the inside of bee boxes is considerably more important than the outside.

I initially started painting the insides as a means of preventing the pallet-wood I used for hive construction [imported wood of any quality being an expensive commodity here in Britain] from splitting and rotting - and it was only at a much later date that I came across: Constructive Beekeeping (1918), by Ed. Clarke - a copy of which can be downloaded from https://archive.org/download/cu31924003100306

Clark writes:
Quote
The bees collect propolis (despised by the beekeeper) and with infinite work and a knowledge of the laws of condensation of moisture, have varnished the inside, sealed all openings that would give upper ventilation, making out of their home a perfect condenser for the water vapor that has filled the hive air by evaporation from the nectar. This moisture they collect from the inside surface of the hive, works right in with their idea of economy, saving the carrying of water from the stream or spring.
When building his own hives:
Quote
All joints and cracks are filled with hot rosin or pitch and the inside of the hive-body and cover is given three coats of varnish.
Clark concludes:
Quote
All other Conditions, by the aid of condensation, can be controled by the beekeeper. Ventilation and shade each make more room in the hive, but not with uniformity under all conditions; So we must add to the treatments we give the bees, a well varnished inner surface to the hive, and a cover that, at no time, permits of upward ventilation.

And so it would seem that very little is new in the world of beekeeping - with my own (successful) devised method of hive construction and management being identified and described a hundred years ago, and several thousand miles away !

It would seem that both Ed.Clark and I prevent any need for the bees to propolise the walls of their hives - by simply 'getting in there first' with the copious application of paint or varnish. 
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3005
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Hive Construction ?'s
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2017, 08:46:30 am »
This plywood would have been formed using smooth moulds and under considerable pressure using urea-formaldehyde glue which resulted in the formation of a glassy-smooth and fully water-resistant surface.  It's not particularly attractive stuff - such as plywood made with a high quality veneer on one side.
Also doesn't glue well.  Contact cement might work but you would have to devise a press to squeeze the two layers together or drive your car on it.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it