Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Interesting take on Donald Trump  (Read 6426 times)

Offline Hi-Tech

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 528
  • Gender: Male
    • talkhunting.com
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2015, 10:04:02 pm »
He has played the game, just from the other end.

I think after 4 presidents that played the game from one end, Im ready for one that at least plays from the other end. We will NEVER have a president that hasn't played the game in one form or another.
Computer Tech, Beekeeper, Hunter = Hi-Tech Redneck
talkhunting.com

Offline kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17194
  • Gender: Female
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2015, 11:40:57 am »
Quote
I think after 4 presidents that played the game from one end, Im ready for one that at least plays from the other end. We will NEVER have a president that hasn't played the game in one form or another.

That's probably true, but then you have to decide what ideology is important to you.  I am a conservative.  If, for instance, Webb had stayed in a gotten the nomination for the dems, I would have voted for him over Trump.

Since all I have to make my decision is what they say, and what they have done, Trump does not make the cut as a conservative in any way by what he has done.  Has he had a change of heart, or is he just saying what he knows people want to hear?  Kind of like Obama did before he was elected...

I will vote for him if he is the nominee because I will not throw my vote away and give Hillary the chance to carry on Obamas legacy.  I will do it knowing that I will only be voting for the better of the bad.
I hope people will wake up and do their own homework.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Hi-Tech

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 528
  • Gender: Male
    • talkhunting.com
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2015, 06:28:18 pm »
Some people may think this is a bit out there but I am coming to believe there are no dems or republicans. I think they act like they have different opinions in public and then go have a beer after like best friends. Their number 1 priority is to get elected or re-elected. A divided nation fights amongst itself and cant see that the laugh is really on all of us. I have been voting republican since Reagan and haven't seen a conservative change since then. This world has grown increasingly liberal in its laws and actions. Because we have had conservative presidents and congresses, I am honestly thinking its not that they cant do anything but in fact, don't want to. They just need to look like they are trying so they will get re-elected. Its all pre-decided by a few guys in a room with tin foil hats...
Computer Tech, Beekeeper, Hunter = Hi-Tech Redneck
talkhunting.com

Offline iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 9503
  • Gender: Male
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2015, 06:59:34 pm »
AMEN   All we have now are dems and rino's.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Maggiesdad

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 452
  • Gender: Male
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2015, 07:38:02 pm »
Hi-Tech you nailed it. It's just one big ol' uniparty.

So it comes down to commonsense and how many people still can think for themselves.

It will be riveting, that's for sure.

Offline GSF

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4084
  • Gender: Male
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2015, 09:46:49 pm »
ditto - nailed it. I hear that often in my conspiracy circles. I heard someone say we now have more republicans in office than at any other time in a great number of years - maybe since the civil war. Anyway the point is we have more and they're not even trying to push the conservative agenda i.e., balance budget, borders, equal rights (for all to include the white male). lower taxes, ect.

I also hear a lot of folks say we are headed to a one world order and they are all just buying time. I don't know if that's true but it seems to have some traction.
When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

Offline herbhome

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 698
  • Gender: Male
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2015, 02:05:22 pm »
GSF,

Just look at where the wealth has increased over the last 30 years since we've been moving to a "global economy". Try to find American made goods-it's like a scavenger hunt.
Neill

Offline Geoff

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 817
  • Gender: Male
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2015, 04:55:42 pm »
 
  Likewise in Australia Herb.
Local Area Network in Australia - the LAN down under.

Offline Hi-Tech

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 528
  • Gender: Male
    • talkhunting.com
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2015, 02:16:24 pm »
I don't think Trump is the answer to all of our problems. If elected, he will make it better or worse. No way to tell. However, over the last 20 years I have become so disgusted with politicians I cant help but keep my eye on a candidate that ALL politicians seem to hate. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Computer Tech, Beekeeper, Hunter = Hi-Tech Redneck
talkhunting.com

Offline iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 9503
  • Gender: Male
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2015, 03:15:50 pm »
Whether he gets in or not, I think his actions will show the RNC that the silent majority is waking up and they will start changing for the better. If he gets in, both the RNC and the DNC will begin to listen
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline sterling

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
  • Gender: Male
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2015, 06:32:17 pm »
Whether he gets in or not, I think his actions will show the RNC that the silent majority is waking up and they will start changing for the better. If he gets in, both the RNC and the DNC will begin to listen

Probably won't change neither party because they don't care what the people want. They will just figure out some way to take him out so they can continue with their political game of pretending they are different. Just consider what has happened in the last year with the Republicans supposedly in control, everything has gone Obama's way.
Trey Gowdy was going to get Hillary on the Benghazi thing. How did that turn out? They cleared her instead of any kind of conviction for any wrong doing.
Now Gowdy is pulling for Rubio. What does that tell you about Rubio?
Cruz is the only conservative in there and it will be a big surprise if they ever let him get the nomination.

Offline kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17194
  • Gender: Female
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2015, 09:57:57 pm »
Quote
Trey Gowdy was going to get Hillary on the Benghazi thing. How did that turn out? They cleared her instead of any kind of conviction for any wrong doing.

no they have not  + there is still the FBI investigation going on.

Quote
Now Gowdy is pulling for Rubio. What does that tell you about Rubio?

Rubio is a mixed bag.  In the main, he's conservative.  He has miss stepped on some things like immigration and that was primarily due to his being green.  In my opinion, still to green to be president.

Quote
Whether he gets in or not, I think his actions will show the RNC that the silent majority is waking up and they will start changing for the better. If he gets in, both the RNC and the DNC will begin to listen

He has been useful in that way.  Now he can go   :wink:


They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 9503
  • Gender: Male
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2015, 10:34:15 pm »
Not yet. I want to see him go right down to the line, then cruz take it.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline sterling

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
  • Gender: Male
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2015, 07:53:27 pm »
>no they have not  + there is still the FBI investigation going on.

She came out of the hearing smelling like a rose. And who is controlling the FBI? What charges have come from the FBI?
When Biden made his "I'm not going to run" speech I knew then Hillary was in the clear. And that was right about the time Bill and Barry play golf together. The Dems are to smart to have their number one candidate brought down this far into the race.

The Republicans know they can control Rubio. He showed them that when he was in that immigration bunch of eight.   

Offline Hi-Tech

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 528
  • Gender: Male
    • talkhunting.com
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2015, 01:01:43 pm »
its really a simple mathematics issue...

Let's break it down. I wont even bring in the conspiracy theories that politicians all work together. Ill just keep it simple math.

1.  The main goal of a politician is to get elected or re-elected. If you really think its anything other than that, you are fooling yourself or you have drank the Kool-Aid. While a particular politicians beliefs may be similar to yours that does not mean that they will make any changes to help those beliefs. They have to get elected before they can do anything and that is their main goal. Also, the main reason they want to get elected isn't to please you and your beliefs. Its for the many benefits that some from being elected. Wealth, power, prestige, retirement pay for life, health benefits for life, speaking tours... I can go on and on.. It is very profitable to hold a federal pubic office of any kind. more so the presidential office. No poor ex presidents exist.

2.  So, how does a politician get elected? They just get their name on the ballot and hope the people vote for them? No. It costs hundreds of millions of dollars to get elected these days. Its true in almost every case that he (or she) who spends the most, wins. That's because they can reach the most people with advertising, media and TV time.

So, lets recap. A politicians main goal is to get elected and it takes a ton of money to do so. Are we all in agreement about that? I don't think I will get any arguments there so lets move on.

3.  Now, to get this money so they can get elected, they need people to give them money. Now I am sure some of you have donated to a politicians campaign fund but if you think your $100 donation really helped, you have taken another sip of the Kool-Aid. Their money comes from big corporations, very wealthy people, and other influential groups. While it does take a vote from the people to get them elected, without this money, you would not know anything about them to even cast a vote for them.

4. Do you think these heavy donators do this because they think these are good men or because of their beliefs? No. They do it for influence. They expect to be paid back by the politician. he or she pays that debt by doing the bidding of those groups. In other words, he just exchanged his beliefs for theirs. If he gets elected and does not do their bidding, he wont get their money the next time for re-election. Now, we have already stated that their main goal is to get elected and they have to have a ton of money to do so. Do you really think they are going to refuse to do the bidding of these people? Of course not. They have sold their soul and are now just puppets for these donators.

5.  However, the problem is if they do the bidding of the donators, they may lose the support of the people who voted them in. They have to have your vote and their money. Its a problem for sure.. So, they have to do the bidding of the donators but make it look like they are acting on your behalf. How do they pull this off? by blaming other politicians for stopping their work for the people. Sound familiar? Every word out of an elected politicians mouth is about how someone is stopping them from what they really want to do. If that was really the case, that would mean that they couldn't do what the donators wanted but that money seems to keep flowing. this tells me the donators are getting what they want and all the voters get is excuses. hmmmmm

So lets do the math...

Lets call the politician "Bob" so I can stop typing the politician.

Bob wants to be president and he is a conservative, at least he says he is. He needs money from large donators but needs to convince people to vote for him.

Bob + Donators money + peoples votes = presidential election

Bob + Donators money (doing what the donators tell him to do) + peoples votes (telling the voters what they want to hear) = presidential election

Once elected, the math changes

Bob + doing exactly what the donators want + making excuses to the voters to act like he is trying to do their will = presidential re-election

So after seeing the math, we realize that pretty much every elected president or congressman for that matter, is a puppet to the donators. voters will accept excuses. we have been doing that for years. We have grown used to it. Donators will not. They demand results.

So, somehow we have to change this. We need a politician who isn't a puppet to the donators and only has to please the voters with results. What we need is:

Bob + money that holds no strings + peoples votes = president

This formula will hold bob accountable only to the voters so he will have to produce results for them or not get re-elected. The only way to do that, as I see it, is like this.

Bob + his own money + peoples votes = president

Bob + his own money + getting results for the people = presidential re-election

Is there anyone running that fits this formula?
Computer Tech, Beekeeper, Hunter = Hi-Tech Redneck
talkhunting.com

Offline chorrylan

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 59
  • Gender: Male
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2016, 02:39:37 am »
Hmm I'm not a u.s. citizen so my interest and knowledge is simply curiosity level but..
 you've reduced a 3-factor mathematical equation (politician+donator+public) to one of just politician+public and assumed this will be better for the public.
this seems logical to me if you assume bob is going to behave like a politician who has worked out how to play the game and get elected/reelected without donators and their influence.

But what if bob in fact is more correctly described and behaves like a large donator that has worked out how to play and influence the game without needing the politician?

Donators play the game to turn their billions into even more billions.  This too is a mathematical model where increasing their billions requires a corresponding deduction of billions from 'everyone else' aka the public.

 If I were bob trying to meet the two  objectives.
A) turn the billions into more billions
b) get elected and re elected.
 
I would be tempted to
1) say whatever was necessary to get elected meeting objective b.
2) once elected do the usual influencing and manipulating of  the system to ensure objective a. which should be much easier and more effective than the last 20 years or so of getting a stupid politician to act as my proxy.

The important tweaks should be about long term transfer of billions more so than short term as getting too greedy prior to the next election could hurt objective b. 

I'd also be looking for transfer options where those giving up the money to me are non voters or at least voters who wouldn't have voted for me anyway as then there's reduced risk to objective b.
I'd also look for a few options where those who voted for me shared in some of the spoils as that would shore up my voting base at the cost of folk who were never going to vote for me in the first place.

eg Being a donator I don't think I could convince immigrants and welfare dependant folk to vote for me so they're an obvious group to extract the money from. I haven't worked out a  way to dole out some of the money to my supporters without hurting objective a too much but..I have plenty of time before the election to work on that. :-)  'cept... sadly I'm not Bob.. darn.

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 09:38:44 am by chorrylan »

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2511
  • Gender: Male
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2016, 01:36:46 pm »
IMHO, Macchiavelli couldn't have framed it better, Chorryland.  Similar to a junta's rule following a military coup, the guy you envision doesn't need or accept any input from anyone else. 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Hi-Tech

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 528
  • Gender: Male
    • talkhunting.com
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2016, 02:37:09 pm »
chorrylan, awesome reply!

That is the big question, isn't it. In fact, that's always the question. My point is best described by the old saying about the definition of insanity. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. American politics have been the same thing, over and over, for quite a long time, and always to the same result. Maybe a different option or approach, even it doesn't improve the immediate conditions, may change the process enough in the future to make it possible to get better.

Unfortunately, it probably wont happen. While I am an optimist at heart, I tend to be a pessimist when it comes to politics. Americans have become too soft. There are too many people in this country that believe you are a victim if you are offended or if your feelings get hurt. Our politicians have only made this worse.
Computer Tech, Beekeeper, Hunter = Hi-Tech Redneck
talkhunting.com

Offline kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17194
  • Gender: Female
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2016, 05:40:58 pm »
Quote
Donators play the game to turn their billions into even more billions.  This too is a mathematical model where increasing their billions requires a corresponding deduction of billions from 'everyone else' aka the public.

I would agree with all you said except this part.  The only time making more = taking from others is through taxation.  In a capitalist economy (which we don't have right now) making more expands the economy and opportunity. 

Quote
Bob + his own money + peoples votes = president

you would be talking about Trump?  Only problem with that is that he has spread money around to get what he wants.  He's played the game from the crony capitalist end.  Since this is his model, there is no reason to believe he would not continue the same from the other end.  After all, that's how business is done in his experience.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline little john

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1483
Re: Interesting take on Donald Trump
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2016, 09:06:35 am »
If I were Donald T ... I'd be less inclined to emblazen the name TRUMP just about everywhere that's visible - for in the english language, to 'trump' means to pass wind audibly - i.e. a loud fart.

You'll never again be able to look at that man without thinking about this ...

LJ


A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com