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Author Topic: Do you have a LONG, HORIZONTAL, ANGLED-WALL top-bar hive? How big is it?  (Read 3167 times)

Offline ugcheleuce

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Hello everyone

I'm curious to find out what are the average measurements for top-bar hives in the field, whether home-made or store bought.

I'm interested specifically in what some might call "Kenyan" hives, i.e. long, horizontal hives with angled walls and with top-bars that leave no gaps.

If you have a top-bar hive, please tell me where you got it and also what its outside measurements are, according to this schematic:



I only need A, B and C.  Also please tell me how long is your top-bar hive (i.e. mm, inch, or number of bars).

Then I can expand my spreadsheet:



Thanks
Samuel
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 07:29:53 am by ugcheleuce »
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Offline little john

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Re: Do you have a top-bar hive? How big is it?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2015, 06:14:42 am »
The 'standard' Warre hive is a top bar hive, of course, as are it's variants - such as the Russian Alpine Hive, of which I have a couple. Would you want to include these ? But - how then can the size of each hive be calculated, when they are expandable ?

All of my hives (both vertical and horizontal, fixed-size and expandable) can take frames and/or top bars - and currently several of them do indeed have a mix of top bars and frames. Again - would you want to include these ?

Not wishing to labour the point much further, ALL hives may be run as top bar hives - even the Langstroth (which I don't have ...).   

Perhaps you may need to define the inclusive limits of your spreadsheet ?

LJ

BTW - you cannot calculate hive volume from external measurements, as wall thicknesses chosen by constructors will invariably be different.
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Offline ugcheleuce

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Re: Do you have a LONG HORIZONTAL ANGLED-WALL top-bar hive? How big is it?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2015, 07:32:27 am »
The 'standard' Warre hive is a top bar hive...

Well, perhaps I should have known that there is the risk that the first responder to my post would be a "warres-are-also-top-bar-hives" activist.  Anyway, in an attempt to satisfy you, I edited my post to clarify the question.

Quote
BTW - you cannot calculate hive volume from external measurements, as wall thicknesses chosen by constructors will invariably be different.

I assume that the material won't be thinner than half an inch or thicker than an inch, so that gives a reasonable degree of inaccuracy.  One has to draw the line somewhere.  Outside measurements are easier to measure on a populated hive.
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3 hives in desperate need of requeening :-)

Offline little john

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Re: Do you have a LONG HORIZONTAL ANGLED-WALL top-bar hive? How big is it?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2015, 10:34:47 am »
The 'standard' Warre hive is a top bar hive...

Well, perhaps I should have known that there is the risk that the first responder to my post would be a "warres-are-also-top-bar-hives" activist.  Anyway, in an attempt to satisfy you, I edited my post to clarify the question.

There is no need to be rude. It's hardly my fault you were making sweeping generalisations.

Quote
Quote
BTW - you cannot calculate hive volume from external measurements, as wall thicknesses chosen by constructors will invariably be different.

I assume that the material won't be thinner than half an inch or thicker than an inch, so that gives a reasonable degree of inaccuracy.  One has to draw the line somewhere.  Outside measurements are easier to measure on a populated hive.

It's always a mistake to make assumptions. Some of my long hives have walls 1.5" thick - that's 3" to be deducted from the internal width. Why not strive for some accuracy if this is worth doing at all ?
You can still measure the outside width of the (populated) hive, then subtract twice the wall thickness - that's hardly rocket science.

LJ
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Offline Maggiesdad

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Re: Do you have a LONG, HORIZONTAL, ANGLED-WALL top-bar hive? How big is it?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2015, 10:50:06 am »
OP - I have 6 Mangums, all are 4' long, 3 are this year's starts from 2lb Italian packages (1 requeened w/queen I raised), 3 are splits with queens I raised. All 6 colonies are just over 2' long (with their assorted honeybars). I wanted the extra room of the 4' box for late winter feeding if necessary.

Since Dr. Mangum has obviously had success, and I am just 40 miles due west of him, I opted for his box and management style for my startup.
Glen

Offline ugcheleuce

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Re: Do you have a LONG HORIZONTAL ANGLED-WALL top-bar hive? How big is it?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2015, 02:41:29 pm »
There is no need to be rude. It's hardly my fault you were making sweeping generalisations.

I apologise.

Quote
It's always a mistake to make assumptions. Some of my long hives have walls 1.5" thick - that's 3" to be deducted from the internal width. Why not strive for some accuracy if this is worth doing at all ?

The problem with this kind of accuracy is that it isn't always clear from the descriptions of posted hive designs whether they refer to inner or outer dimensions.  Some of the designs are more like guidelines anyway, so please look past the fact that my spreadsheet has decimal places :-)

On the other hand, unfortunately, you're right.  Assuming outside measurements for Crowder's hive, for example, if his measurements are really inner measurements, adds 25% of volume to the hive.  Looks like I'll have to double-check my research on every one of those hives...
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 02:56:44 pm by ugcheleuce »
--
Samuel Murray, Apeldoorn, Netherlands
3 hives in desperate need of requeening :-)

Offline ugcheleuce

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Re: Do you have a LONG, HORIZONTAL, ANGLED-WALL top-bar hive? How big is it?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2015, 02:48:47 pm »
Since Dr. Mangum has obviously had success, and I am just 40 miles due west of him, I opted for his box and management style for my startup.

Could you perhaps do me a favour and tell me what his exact dimensions are?  I was unable to find that out, and my spreadsheet's information for his hive is based on conjecture (mostly from image analysis).
--
Samuel Murray, Apeldoorn, Netherlands
3 hives in desperate need of requeening :-)

Offline little john

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Re: Do you have a LONG HORIZONTAL ANGLED-WALL top-bar hive? How big is it?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2015, 03:59:01 pm »

The problem with this kind of accuracy is that it isn't always clear from the descriptions of posted hive designs whether they refer to inner or outer dimensions.  Some of the designs are more like guidelines anyway, so please look past the fact that my spreadsheet has decimal places :-)

Yes - I had noticed :)  I don't envy you this task at all. - but - if it's to be of any value to yourself and others it'll be worth focussing as tightly as possible on the measurements - errors of which compound significantly when the data become cubic. As I'm sure you're well aware.

The offer regarding measurements of my square-sided long hives (angle of 90 degrees) still stands - as we're still friends - but I get the impression that you're restricting this spreadsheet to what has come to be known as the 'Kenyan' Top Bar Hive design. If you should extend your interest to include the so-called 'Tanzanian' Top Bar Hive design as well, just say.

Although you haven't revealed your ultimate purpose in compiling this information - it occurs to me that should it be in order to determine the most successful parameters for this type of hive (say), then it would be useful to also know whether each listed hive is intended for single or multiple occupation.  Just a passing thought - trying to be helpful.

LJ

 
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Offline Maggiesdad

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Re: Do you have a LONG, HORIZONTAL, ANGLED-WALL top-bar hive? How big is it?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2015, 04:21:38 pm »
pm sent

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Do you have a LONG, HORIZONTAL, ANGLED-WALL top-bar hive? How big is it?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2015, 06:29:04 pm »
Homemade from off the shelf parts.  All boards of the body are only cut square to length.  No ripping.  No angles.

123.825 centimeter long

A 13.97 centimeter
B 38.1 centimeter
C 28.575 centimeter
D 28.575 centimeter
E never measured it

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm
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Offline ugcheleuce

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Re: Do you have a LONG, HORIZONTAL, ANGLED-WALL top-bar hive? How big is it?
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2015, 01:09:39 pm »
123.825 centimeter long
A 13.97 centimeter
B 38.1 centimeter
C 28.575 centimeter
D ...
E never measured it

Thanks.  Your "E" is 65 degrees, and the height of your hive (D) as calculated by using A, B and C is 26 centimeter.  Your 124 cm long hive is good for 75 litres according to the spreadsheet.
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Samuel Murray, Apeldoorn, Netherlands
3 hives in desperate need of requeening :-)

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Do you have a LONG, HORIZONTAL, ANGLED-WALL top-bar hive? How big is it?
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2015, 02:49:41 pm »
If there were angles cut on the board, it might be 26 centimeter tall.  But they are not.  I know it is exactly (not counting the top bars that rest on the sides) 11 1/4" tall because that exactly the width of a 1 by 12 which is what I use for the end and the boards line up exactly on it.  The extra comes from the fact that there is no angle cut on the sloped boards, so they are setting on one edge at the bottom and the bars rest on the opposite edge at the top and there is a gap both bottom and top because the edges are square with the board, not with the horizon.  11 1/4" = 28.575 centimeter.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm
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Offline crmauch

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I'm not sure you're still interested in collecting information on this, and I'm still in the process of building my hives, but I'm attaching my sides of the hives to the outside of my ends (Mangum does this in his book when building out of scrap lumber which is what I'm doing).  It changes the numbers slightly.  The angle E is still 69 degrees (or 69.64 if I want to quibble),

A will be 229 mm
B will be 427 mm
C will be 286 mm
D will be 268 mm

Length of the hive is as yet TBD.

I'm not sure I understand your later calculations?  Comb per bar, etc.?  And one thing you have Crowder's wall (and I'm assuming here you mean dimension C.) at 290mm (and I don't think the height is right either).  From his book his wall would be 235 mm (or perhaps even smaller interior dimensions as he has his sides coming down flush with the bottom board).
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 10:53:39 am by crmauch »
Chris