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Author Topic: When do you consider a hive too HOT  (Read 4289 times)

Offline jayj200

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When do you consider a hive too HOT
« on: January 04, 2015, 07:17:09 pm »
When do you consider a hive too HOT and should be destroyed?

I just went to a friends hive thank goodness I was suited up.
from the outside they seamed normal. weather was fine and still is 4 hours later.
every frame I moved released a new wave of bees
yes I smoked the entrance yes I smoked them with pine needles.
then I smoked myself the torrent would subside a little. smoke the box move the frame gently and fifty bees would come batting my Vail many times.
Like I said I was fully suited no stings. yea!
we are down in AHB territory Fl has said all feral hives are AHB.

So guy got this lady my friend some bees, these ones he got the call because they were mean.
did that cutout and put them in her box. was that ethical?
later her tree trimmers were attacked and chased out of the yard. they did not like the chainsaw.
later I went and you know the story above.
I told her the are too HOT and should be destroyed.yes or no?
replaced with a package of bees. yes or no?

How is the best way to destroy them? lets not use pesticides inside the box

Offline GSF

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2015, 07:52:03 pm »
I've never experienced this before, but some would probably say replace the queen. If they were in my yard I'd be thinking they are a liability and/or a real danger
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2015, 08:10:00 pm »
Jay,
AHB are difficult to re queen. If he really wants to re queen them, the first thing I would do would make sure they are not in a populated area. I.e.move them. Check out Michael Bush's site. He has a section on how to re queen a hot hive. He separates the hive into separate boxes and determines where the queen is. Re queens the other boxes and removes the queen from the single box and then re queens it.
Jim

Online iddee

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2015, 08:31:26 pm »
sulfur
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2015, 09:19:59 pm »
Here is the section from Michael's site.
Requeening Hot Bees

A really vicious hive is in great need of requeening, but is also the most difficult to find a queen in. Between the distraction of a hundred thousand bees trying to kill you and the bees running all over the combs, the vicious queen is also usually quite mobile and hard to find. Also, though, keep in mind that a queenless hive can get vicious, so try to make sure you have eggs or signs of a queen before you spend a lot of time trying to find her. Also check for signs of queenlessness like a dissonant roar when the hive isn't even being opened. When I need to requeen, here is what I have done under those circumstances.

First, Be prepared to be stung. Be prepared to walk away for a while. Be prepared to run away for a while. I find running through some brush is a good way to get rid of clinging and following bees.

Divide and conquer. The object of this is to split the hive up into manageable parts. One part will be an empty box at the old location to draw off the field bees, who are usually the hardest to deal with and we will know there is no queen there. If you have a dolly and some help, you may be able to move the hive in one piece 10 yards away or so and put an empty box at the old location to get these field bees out before dealing with the hive at all. I never have that much help, so I just do a box at a time from the start. We want all the rest of the boxes of the hive on their own bottom with their own top. Each will need a queen, so order one more queen than the number of boxes on the hive. Now set as many bottom boards, ten steps away from the original hive, as there are boxes in the original hive. Make sure you have a full bee suit, have rubber bands on your ankles to keep them out of your pants, have a zip on veil and leather gauntlet gloves. Put as many lids as you have boxes next to the hive and one extra bottom. Get the smoker going really well and smoke the hive until smoke is rolling out. Now pry the top box loose leaving on the lid. Set it on the bottom and set one of the lids on the top of the main hive. Carry the removed box to one of the bottom boards. Take note of any that seem to have the most bees (most likely to be brood or have a queen). Repeat this until there are NO boxes left on the original bottom. If you didn't move the whole hive, now put an empty box with frames on the bottom board and a cover on that. This is to catch the field bees coming back. Now walk away and come back in a hour or a day.

When you come back start with the most populated boxes that are most likely to have a queen. Set another bottom board and an empty box (no frames) on that. Smoke lightly this time. You don't want to run the queen around too much. Wait a minute. Open the box and look for the frame with the most bees and pull it looking for the queen. If you find her, kill her. If not put that frame in the empty box and keep going through all the frames. If you can't handle them at this strength then split the 10 frames into two five frame nucs. Let the nucs settle down and then look through them. Find the queen and killed her. Leave as often as you want to let them calm down, but stay at it until you are done. Look for clues. The box with the most bees is probably the one with the queen. After the queen is dead any box that has been queenless at least 24 hours is ready to be requeened. Introduce a caged queen. Don't open up the candy, just put the queen in with the screen down so the bees can feed her. Some vicious bees will not accept a new queen. Don't worry about it for now. Whatever ones do can be combined with whatever ones don't. After three or four days I take out the cork and poke a hole in the candy or, if the bees seem eager to get her out and are not biting and posturing at the screen wire, I might just pop open the screen and let her out.

Four or five weak vicious hives are much less aggressive than one big vicious hive so immediately they should be somewhat calmer. In six weeks or so they will be much calmer. In 12 weeks or so they should be back to normal.

If you want to save even looking for the queen you can wait overnight after you do the break up, and put a queen in a candy cage in each box. Come back the next day after that and see if there is a dead queen or one where they are biting the cage. The one where they are biting the cage or have killed the queen is probably the one with the queen. Look there. If you have to put half of the frames in another box and let them calm down again and search even less bees. Afterwards you can pull the cork on the candy end and let the bees release the queens in each box. If the new queen for the box with the queen is dead, you can combine it back with one of the boxes with a queen cage. You can also requeen the field bees, but they will be more difficult. You can also do a newspaper combine with them after you get the queen accepted in one of the splits

Michael Bush

Offline kathyp

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2015, 10:10:01 pm »
They are to hot when I dread going out to work them or when they are popping me or others for no reason.  To many good bees out there to bother with bad ones or to pass on those genetics in swarms, etc. 

That sound like trouble waiting to happen and to much for a new beekeeper.
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Offline GDRankin

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2015, 10:12:39 pm »
Good advice from Mr. Bush for sure.

As the state inspector here in Texas told me when I asked about the current regs on AHBs . . . which were basically at one time and not all that long ago - when in doubt, destroy the colony.

"Feel free to work as hot of bees as you like." he said. The laws and regs have been changed and mandatory extermination no longer exists here, 20 + years after their introduction to our area. Too many mutts and mixes, so not all are full blown AHB any more.

So I do, and I work some pretty warm bees on many occasion, but I know what I may be in for so I always dress for the occasion.

I also would add that the reduction of the colony seems to help. Reducing a 10 frame hive to a pair of 5 frame nucs seems to change their tune a good deal. Locating the queen is a pain and can be a good deal of trouble, but once complete, it really changes the attitude of the hive fairly quickly.

So (to me anyway) it really comes down to . . . how brave are you . . . where is the hive located in relation to others that may be in danger until the hive can be requeened and how much do you want to work with them to convert the hive?
Best of luck!
GD

PS. I'm not sure about other areas, but around here there are not a lot of bees, tame or otherwise that care much for the likes of chainsaws, mowers and weedeaters very close to the hive. Just something to consider before you make the final call.
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Offline 10framer

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2015, 12:07:32 am »
i would try to re-queen that hive. 
a hive is too hot when i can't go into them even during a good flow without talking a dozen stings.  i've had bees that bumped my veil but didn't really sting that much but i've had bees that would come out in force and nail my hand every time i barely moved it.
getting stung bothers me more than it used to.  when i was in my 30's i'd work bees wearing shorts, not anymore.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2015, 11:16:01 am »
>When do you consider a hive too HOT and should be destroyed?

I have had some unworkable bees.  I have never destroyed them.  I just requeened them.  "Just" sounds simple, but a really hot hive is a challenge.  "Divide et impera" (Divide and conquer)

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Offline rwlaw

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2015, 01:12:46 pm »
The division of the hive is true. I had one hive that, when split were like kittens. Grew into the second box, and lookout! I called them the boiler room bees, start pulling frames and they'd start flowing out of the hive and hang out on the sides of the box, arms, legs, wherever.
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2015, 01:15:57 pm »
The division of the hive is true. I had one hive that, when split were like kittens. Grew into the second box, and lookout! I called them the boiler room bees, start pulling frames and they'd start flowing out of the hive and hang out on the sides of the box, arms, legs, wherever.
RW,
That just sounds like a good strong hive. Were they all in your face or acting agressive. When they do that they are protecting the hive from robbers.
Jim

Offline rwlaw

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2015, 02:03:34 pm »
They were just psycho bees lol, when I would work that hive, there would be at least five hundred to a thousand bees on my upper body and veil. I would have to shake like a dog to get them off.
 I could work them in shirt sleeves, wouldn't sting for the most part, seemed like they just liked to gain the high ground. I think (hope) I got rid of the genetics last year by giving them a frame of eggs from another hive to raise a queen. Great honey producers tho, was always yanking off surplus to give to lighter hives.
Come to think of it, maybe they were thinking "here comes that bear again, let's try and ball him!"
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 02:37:30 pm by rwlaw »
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Offline jredburn

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2015, 03:44:16 pm »
I work AHB every day in SW Florida.  The State has  decided that 90% + of all feral bees are Africanized and i cannot disagree.  I believe that all our feral bees are Africanized to some degree, be it 5% or 95%.  They are all mutts and all have different temperaments at different times.

I do removals and carry two suits in the truck.  The one I use the most is a standard ventilated jacket with attached hood.  I use polyethylene gardening gloves because the bees don't sting them.  If I have to get down on the ground where the bees are, I tape my pants legs.  The second suit is a Tyvek environmental full body suit with a booties.  In the last four years I have run into three hives that required the Tyvek suit.   Bees so thick on the veil that I could not see daylight.

I still have one of them.  I put it in a 10 frame box and let it build up to two 10 frame boxes and then split it.  I took the top box and moved it 5 miles away and left it alone.  The bottom box was left to fend for itself.  I now have two hives that out produce any other hives i have  and I work them in my standard suit.

I do not sell my bees because they are not for beginners.   My bee yard is 3 miles away from anybody.   I am trying to raise a strain of semi treatment free bees that can survive and flourish in today's environment.

Al of which is a long winded way of saying that every one has to set their own standards for comfort when handling bees.

When I had my first job in a bee yard in 1950 I worked in a T shirt, no gloves, no suit, no veil and no smoke.    Those days are gone forever,  the old ways don't work anymore.

Offline GDRankin

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2015, 06:05:13 pm »
All of which is a long winded way of saying that every one has to set their own standards for comfort when handling bees.

I couldn't agree more . . . well said jredburn and thanks for sharing your info.
I believe that we have very similar bees here in south Texas that you guys have over in FL. (based on what I've read anyway) and I've run into varied degrees of hot bees doing removals myself. It seems the closer to Mexico I get the hotter the bees are, but have yet to run into any quiet as hot as you described, close, but not as bad.

I'm also working a couple of yards that are isolated from people and domestic animals, but since this is my first year doing this, only time will tell how well my plan will work.
Anyway, thanks again for share'n!
Stay safe,
GD
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Offline lomatia

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2015, 06:20:48 pm »
I have one really hot hive! The upside is that they are great foragers but the hitting and chasing is beyond a joke so I will attempt the "Bush" method and see what happens. They follow me to the car and I drive down the hill with the windows open in an effort to get rid of them!
Bought the hive off a bloke ..... obviously didn't want to deal with them. They are a 8 x 3 super hive.
How many splits/re queenings can I get away with? There are a power of bees on board!

Offline KD4MOJ

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2015, 02:40:23 pm »
I work AHB every day in SW Florida.  The State has  decided that 90% + of all feral bees are Africanized and i cannot disagree.  I believe that all our feral bees are Africanized to some degree, be it 5% or 95%.  They are all mutts and all have different temperaments at different times.

Never experienced that in the Panhandle... and I've caught quite a few swarms. Hopefully they stay down south!   :happy:

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Offline CBT

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2015, 07:23:18 pm »
We were called to help out a guy that said the bees ran him in the house a stuck all over the front door. We went at night and sealed them up and took them to a remote area in the woods. They were hot but they work like crazy on honey or you if you stir em up. They calmed down a bit last fall. They may have re queened themselves. This also posted in Buckfast queen

Online iddee

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2015, 08:40:01 pm »
CBT, you need to contact Don Hopkins at (336) 376-8250 or Don.Hopkins@ncagr.gov. The lead state bee inspector.
He will take a few to sample for AHB. Then notify you of the results. All free.

Much better than the fine if you are caught knowingly keeping AHB. It is against the law in NC and they frown upon it quite strongly.
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Offline Wombat2

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2015, 07:47:12 pm »
I'm a relative newbie so this may be a dumb idea but if you have a hot hive and you what to get rid of the queen instead of looking for her and getting attacked in the process why not just dump the bees off the broad box frames a little way from the hive? She cant fly and wont get back like the others.
David L

Offline GDRankin

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Re: When do you consider a hive too HOT
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2015, 07:57:56 pm »
She cant fly and wont get back like the others.

Unless her wings have been clipped, she can fly and will likely rejoin the colony.
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