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Author Topic: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?  (Read 4681 times)

Offline Jow4040

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Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« on: October 27, 2014, 10:10:24 pm »
I've been doing a bot of reading regarding foundation-less deep frames and have been getting mixed messages. Some say the comb will collapse other say it is fine.

Does anyone run foundation-less deep frames? Do you wire the frames or not? What have your experiences been with using them? I plan on doing crush and strain extracting if that makes a difference.

I'm keen to hear your thoughts.

Joe.

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2014, 10:25:02 pm »
Jow,
If you are going to do crush and strain or cut comb, foundationless deeps should work well. Check out Michael Bushes site, he talks about foundationless.
Jim
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Offline Jow4040

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2014, 10:30:48 pm »
Thanks for the reply Jim. I've had a look at Michael's site but he mainly uses mediums. Will deeps work as well? Some people talk about comb collapsing in deeps. Not sure if this is to do with the frame size or just poor handling? Thoughts?

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2014, 10:41:14 pm »
Thanks for the reply Jim. I've had a look at Michael's site but he mainly uses mediums. Will deeps work as well? Some people talk about comb collapsing in deeps. Not sure if this is to do with the frame size or just poor handling? Thoughts?
They should be fine. Just bee careful how you handle them until they are connected to the bottom of the frame.
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline OldMech

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2014, 10:49:46 pm »
Deeps will work. Use fishing string instead of wire as cross support. At least two strands. That way if the hive gets hot and the comb soft it will not collapse under the weight of honey or brood.  25 lb line the bees have chewed in half, the 50 lb trilene big game line they have never separated.
   the fishing line can be cut and pulled out easier than wire, and or left in place when crushing and straining, the filter will catch it, and it is cheaper than wire, easier to cut, and it will not stab you when mushing up the combs.
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Offline hjon71

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2014, 11:41:45 pm »
Just to be clear, are you talking about brood frames or frames just for honey?
Quite difficult matters can be explained even to a slow-witted man, if only he has not already adopted a wrong opinion about them; but the simplest things cannot be made clear even to a very intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he already knows, and knows indubitably, the truth of the matter under consideration. -Leo Tolstoy

Offline Jow4040

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2014, 12:32:17 am »
Just to be clear, are you talking about brood frames or frames just for honey?

Both, I'd ultimately like to be using an unlimited brood box and be able to move brood and honey frames to any part of the hive and or swap them with other hives.


Offline OldMech

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2014, 12:51:57 am »
Wow, you really want to lift a DEEP full of honey?
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline Culley

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2014, 05:15:23 am »
Joe,

I am using foundationless deeps for everything, with an unlimited broodnest.

I have lots of wired frames so I leave the wire on these. I have also put lots of frames in without any wire though, and I haven't had any serious trouble yet with collapsing, I haven't decided yet, but I think my long term plan will be to wire all the new ones as they go in. Fishing line sounds like a good idea.

I put "empty" frames in the brood nest with no starter strips and they go fine, but starter strips definitely make things go smoother, especially in the honey supers.



I just cut them out of thin plywood and glue them in.

And yeah, deeps full of honey are heavy.

Culley

Offline Jow4040

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2014, 06:03:30 am »
Thanks for the info Culley, its exactly what i was after and as a bonus you are also from Australia so have some understanding of the heat we get here.

I have a big spool of wire so i will wire some frames to compliment the paddle pop sticks i've used as guides and see how it goes.

Thanks again,

Joe

Offline amun-ra

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2014, 07:02:23 am »
Im in townsville we get a bit warm sometimes I have deep frames but with wire for support and half heights with no wire as well I have used both in my extractor with no probs I do the half heights cause u can fit two in each side of the extractor or just use it for cut comb when required
Every day the sun shines and gravity sucks= free energy

Offline Rurification

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2014, 09:01:21 am »
I've only had bees for a few year, but I have a few foundationless deeps.   I don't run wire or anything.   I've never had a problem with collapsing comb and my hives are in full sun.   Once they're drawn, they seem to be fine for brood or honey. 
Robin Edmundson
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2014, 09:20:43 am »
>Does anyone run foundation-less deep frames?

I have run some Dadant deeps (11 1/4" frames) and some deeps.  I am not running any at the present, but they worked ok if you don't open them on a hot day in a heavy flow.  With the Dadant deeps I put one horizontal support that was a 1/16" copper coated welding rod.   I've never wired the deeps or mediums.  I have had comb collapse if I messed with it on a hot day in a heavy flow.  Some of the heavy uncapped combs shimmer and shake like jello... which is why I put the welding rod on the Dadant deep frames.

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Offline Jow4040

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2014, 03:56:28 am »
Thanks for all the replies guys. It looks like deeps shouldn't be a problem especially if they are wired. I'll keep an eye on the weight as they fill up with honey this season.

Joe.

Offline pgayle

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2014, 10:02:18 pm »
Depends on what time of year.  A couple of springs ago I hived a swarm on wired foundationless deep frames because that's all I had. They had donated honey frames on the outside and the foundationless wired frames in the middle. They drew nice small cell brood comb.

Later in the season, I gave them another foundationless wired deep frame right in the middle of the brood nest, and they drew the whole thing as drone comb. 

The wires didn't slow them down a bit, built right around them.  Once they have raised a couple of cycles of brood, the comb is pretty tough.

Offline Culley

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2014, 09:34:38 am »
The only disadvantage I have seen with using wire is that it makes it harder to cut comb from the frame with a knife. I'd think about this if doing cut and strain. I've just used unwired ones at first to see what would happen, and now from laziness really.

Offline Joe D

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Re: Foundation-less deeps a bad idea?
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2014, 09:10:08 pm »
I have some foundationless deeps, mediums, and shallows.  I haven't wire or done anything to them.  I use the deeps in the brood chamber.  I use the mediums and shallows in the supers.  If they have the frame filled out pretty good and you start extractor slow you can sling them.  By the second season they are good to go.  Good luck to you




Joe