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Author Topic: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?  (Read 12175 times)

Offline Bees-in-Art

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Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« on: January 15, 2012, 12:19:08 pm »
I just bought a bag of soy flour to make pollen pattys, then I read somewhere that it must be fat free soy flour. Mine is 9% fat.

Is that a real problem or just an urban myth?

Thanks for help,

Andrew

Offline BjornBee

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2012, 01:24:06 pm »
Most recipes of pollen substitute, calls for a limited amount of soy flour. Honey bees LOVE soy flour and will collect it even dry with nothing else added.

But anything beyond feeding soy flour for a very short period of time, is not suggested. Soy is not the best thing for bees. It lacks the essential amino acids that bees require to break down the proteins and fully digest it. You know the fat content, but what about the amino acid profile?

Many recipes start with brewers yeast. Some types actually have all the requirements of the essential amino acids. but bees do not really favor it by itself. So beekeepers tinker around adding powdered eggs, soy flours, salts, vitamins, and other ingredients to get the bees to eat it better. And some recipes call for 50-80% sugar. No wonder the bees eat it up in tests conducted by some manufacturers.

The fat content in soy will not harm bees unless you are feeding soy flour straight to the bees. The problem is not in the fat content, as much as the lacking of amino acids.

Read the article dated June 2009 on this page:
http://www.bjornapiaries.com/beekramblings200910.html

Then read the information from the link provided in the article.

It will answer many questions about feeding. Producing feed that the bees gobble up is no problem. Producing pollen substitute actually healthy for your bees is another matter.
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Offline Finski

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2012, 03:59:06 pm »
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Soya flour  has very good amino acid balance. No amino acid is missing.

You cannot feed mere soya flour because bees do not eate it. It has not enough nutritiens to brood rearing.

20% or 9% fat  is good.

First laboratory tests of patty recipes were made in USA in two different laboratories 1977.
Soya flour was essential part of the recipe.
Nowadays many beekeeper do not like soya because it is  gene manipulated.

I have soya forage Hamlet Protein HP 100. Its amino acid list you may see in Hamlet company's home page. It is an animal mother milk replacer.

Like Bj√∂rn  says, yeast is a good source of aminoacids.

I have 6 years old Chinese irradiated pollen and it gives enough aroma to patty that bees eate it.

Soya has been used tens of years as bee protein and nothing to do with urban stories.
I use patty in April and in May. Willow starts bloom here 1.5. Brood area is nice.
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« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 04:22:52 pm by Finski »
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Offline Bees-in-Art

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2012, 06:42:42 pm »
Thanks for the good advice.

I have some yeast for a bread machine - is that ok? Or should I get brewers yeast?

Thanks,

Andrew

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2012, 09:14:22 pm »
I agree that soy flour is not complete but the fat is actually, IMO, a good thing.  Many amino acids are "fatty acids" and will be in the fat.  I sometimes mix whole soy flour with real pollen for substitute.  I don't feed it straight.
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Offline Finski

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2012, 12:21:05 am »
Thanks for the good advice.

I have some yeast for a bread machine - is that ok? Or should I get brewers yeast?

Thanks,

Andrew

I saw that you are in UK. It is impossible to bye there irradiated pollen.

You are better to find first a riable patty formula and learn how to use it. Forexampe softness is one of the basic thing in the patty. 
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Offline rdy-b

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2012, 12:30:01 am »
I just bought a bag of soy flour to make pollen pattys, then I read somewhere that it must be fat free soy flour. Mine is 9% fat.

Is that a real problem or just an urban myth?

Thanks for help,

Andrew
what you want to remember about SOY is it needs to have been toasted thats the important isue with soy
 your fat content as stated will be of benifit---RDY-B

Offline rdy-b

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2012, 12:36:09 am »
Thanks for the good advice.

I have some yeast for a bread machine - is that ok? Or should I get brewers yeast?

Thanks,

Andrew
dont use live yeast from the bread machine--get brewers yeast--
 heres info for soy yeast paty mix--just adjust amounts to your needs---RDY-B

 http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/nwprotpatty.htm

Offline Finski

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2012, 11:42:01 am »
dont use live yeast from the bread machine--get brewers yeast--
 heres info for soy yeast paty mix--just adjust amounts to your needs---RDY-B


i have used just it 5 years, living dry yeast for bread machines. But it is in 500 g bags..
Just now I have it 60 kg.  
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Offline rdy-b

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2012, 01:35:55 am »
dont use live yeast from the bread machine--get brewers yeast--
 heres info for soy yeast paty mix--just adjust amounts to your needs---RDY-B


i have used just it 5 years, living dry yeast for bread machines. But it is in 500 g bags..
Just now I have it 60 kg.  
yes but you where saying something about adding extra sugar to stop bubbling of mix--if its live yeast
 you are killing it with sugar to stop fermentation--why are you using yeast for bread--brewers yeast is key
 it is inactive- RDY-B

Offline Finski

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2012, 02:45:24 am »
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I have studied 5 years biochemistry in university. I am not afraid what I do.

50% sugar content stops the fermenting and so it does with you. You get too yeast, mold and bacteria to your patty but  sugar keeps them passive.

Normal foraged pollen has 30% honey.

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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2012, 07:30:22 am »
Thanks for the good advice.

I have some yeast for a bread machine - is that ok? Or should I get brewers yeast?

Thanks,

Andrew
dont use live yeast from the bread machine--get brewers yeast--
 heres info for soy yeast paty mix--just adjust amounts to your needs---RDY-B

 http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/nwprotpatty.htm

I agree. Get the inactive brewers yeast. Then add what you need to the mix. Brewers yeast is an after by-product and is "spent". 
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 07:43:04 am »

Normal foraged pollen has 30% honey.


Before I go any further, I just want to clarify this statement. Your say what? That pollen trapped by returning bees has 30% honey? Or are you suggesting bee bread (in cells) has 30% honey added after they work it?
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Offline rdy-b

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2012, 01:39:12 pm »
  Finski-I understand what is going on with your yeast also--i hope the others that read this
 understand as well--Bee bread funs 50 - 50 pollen and honey--but it has ben inoculated by the bee its self
 with micro activity some have tried to duplicated - but never the same as nature--RDY-B

Offline Finski

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2012, 02:02:47 pm »
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I am not going to explain. You are wrong.

I do not have  proplems with yeast. I just mentionedthat IF THE PATTY MAKES BUBBLES, add sugar my patty does not make bubbles.

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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2012, 02:33:37 pm »
  Finski-I understand what is going on with your yeast also--i hope the others that read this
 understand as well--Bee bread funs 50 - 50 pollen and honey--but it has ben inoculated by the bee its self
 with micro activity some have tried to duplicated - but never the same as nature--RDY-B

I tried asking nicely what the 30% exactly was. That percentage is not close to pure pollen on the flower or pollen in the cells when made into bee bread. The basis of my question was probably along your lines of reasoning and eventually getting to a point of discussing what may or may not be missing in replacing what the bees do naturally in making bee bread, and what that may not include with enzymes, beneficial bacteria, etc.

Personally I have never heard of a beekeeper using active bread yeast. Of course I also found soy flour that did not meet the amino acid profile while finski states that all soy flour products do. Without getting the amino acid profile from the manufacturer you will never know what the amino acid profile would be.

Good Luck rdy-b. 

:cheer:




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Offline Finski

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2012, 03:19:25 pm »
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About 30% sugar means out out dry weight of collected pollen.  I just checked it from 2007 research, which used pollen from Poland,China and and what was the third country.
It is "about" result.

I have used fresh baking yeast from crocery.  soon you note  that when you mix fresh yeast and sugar, water will burst from yeast. That limits the amount of used fresh yeast.
Aroma from that is much more worse than you mix dry yeast to patty dough.
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Offline Finski

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2012, 03:24:08 pm »
[Your say what? That pollen trapped by returning bees has 30% honey?

trapped pollen what I use in patty.
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Offline rdy-b

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2012, 11:48:10 pm »
**I do not have  proplems with yeast. I just mentionedthat IF THE PATTY MAKES BUBBLES, add sugar my patty does not make bubbles.**

 I never used the word problem--cool your jets fighter pilot-- :lol:

 but in all honesty why are you using a active yeast--?
if you dont want to explain I understand --I have known about active yeast such as torula
 that is some kind of wood pulp by product -but those types are nutritional yeast -and they become inactive
 in the process of mixing patty formula--the gentleman from UK is asking for advice- if you advice bread yeast he needs to know both sides of the coin-myself and others recommend BREWERS YEAST it is in active- :) RDY-B

Offline Finski

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Re: Soy Flour for Pollen Patty: Urban Myth?
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2012, 02:58:50 am »
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I use living yeast because I do not see any problems in it.

I read about torula and I cleared out, that torula is not sold in Finland. We have pulp factories in Finland even too much, but not torula producers. We produce alcohol from pulp wastes.

I  use an yeast which is produced specially to human consuption and its quality is highest. It is not waste product or side product. It just  happens so that I have a very advantageous source.

A tree mass has cellulose 50% and the rest is waste, like lignin. Noways all are dried up and used to produce electrict and heat.

I have adviced both Beemaster forum and Beekeeperforum in UK at least 5 years to use ordinary active yeast what ever it is.

The secret is that you must have a patty which prevents mold and bacterium growth inside the hive. Patty does not remain sterile many hours. Sugar content is simple way to stop microbium living in the substrate.

Some bacteria produce poisons. A egg protein is dangerous in that meaning. Soya protein is easy to take mold too.   Do you eate  moist egg flour which has been on kitchen table the whole week?  Hive temp is ideal to microbium growth.

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