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Author Topic: how long to wait  (Read 211 times)

Offline crispy

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how long to wait
« on: July 12, 2020, 08:34:11 am »
Hi all well the time is coming soon that i shall recieve my bees from the bee breeder , approximatly around 10 weeks give or take a week .So my question is i get my nucleus and i place them into a box so take 5 frames out replace with bee frames , firstly should i wait before i transfer them from the nuc box to the bee box ? secondly what ammount of time should i wait before i add a second super and queen excluder ,these are all newbie questions i know but thats what i am a newbie looking for advice from old hands , it seems like it has taken forever to get to this point the bee yard is ready , the hive is ready , im ready but my bees arnt yet so i am asking questions now i know i could read a book but i want to ask experienced keepers so i dont stuff up what ive waited so long to get .     

Offline iddee

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2020, 09:22:39 am »
Place them as soon as you get them.
Add the second box when 80 to 90% of the frames are full.
Add the excluder about the third or fourth year when you are experienced. Many newbees kill their first hives with an excluder. That is a whole new chapter.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Online Garigal

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2020, 09:35:12 am »
I'd usually give them a few days to a week to settle in to their new surroundings and the stress from transporting them home etc before any transfer.

Main thing is to not let them over heat in the car and never leave a nuc in direct sun while the entrance is still closed.

If you need to keep them in for any period of time a cool shady place is best and water can be sprayed on the vent openings as required.

As for when to transfer them into a full size hive I would wait until they are strong in numbers and covering most if not all of the 5 frames then do the change over on a warm day with good weather.

Usually just put the 5 frames in the centre of the hive in the same order they came out of the nuc and fill the remaining space with frames of foundation. push all frames together tightly. Reduce the entrance.

Also you can pack them all to one side and fill the dead space with some sort of dummy board so the bees don't have too much space to manage too soon and add frames as required. This approach can help where SHB or cold snaps are a problem.

Add a second box once bees have built out at least 8 frames as adding it sooner they may ignore the outer two frames. Using an excluder with a super full of fresh foundation the bees can be reluctant to move up, they can be encouraged to move up by pulling a frame or two of brood up above the excluder but just make sure the queen isn't on that frame or shake all the bees off before lifting. Replace those brood frames with new frames.

Can also not use an excluder until they start drawing the frames then shake them all down below the excluder although you risk having a generation of brood hatching from frames you will be extracting later, that may not worry you though.

Offline Acebird

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2020, 09:39:28 am »
Follow Iddee's advice.
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Online Garigal

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2020, 09:53:41 am »
Yeah or just follow the advice from most of our state based Primary Industries Departments that has worked here in Australia for decades where we have a lot less beekeeping problems than the rest of the world.

Online Garigal

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2020, 10:24:06 am »
Here's a link to a free pdf guide to beekeeping in Australia published by the Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation, now Agrifutures Australia, and as good as any book you could buy here.

https://www.agrifutures.com.au/wp-content/uploads/publications/14-098.pdf

Offline iddee

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2020, 11:57:22 am »
""I'd usually give them a few days to a week to settle in to their new surroundings and the stress from transporting them home etc before any transfer.""

Yep, and upset them again for a few days when at their weakest.........

""As for when to transfer them into a full size hive I would wait until they are strong in numbers and covering most if not all of the 5 frames then do the change over on a warm day with good weather.""

If they are not already there, leave them at the breeders and find a new source for bees,

Sooooo many new bees have forgotten the excluder during a dearth, IE: winter, and when the bees move up to the honey stores, the queen stays below and perishes, right when it is hardest to replace her.  It is best to have a couple or 3 years experience before using them.


"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 05:36:28 pm »
Yeah or just follow the advice from most of our state based Primary Industries Departments that has worked here in Australia for decades where we have a lot less beekeeping problems than the rest of the world.
Problems are like viruses.  They move around the world at different times.  Your time will come.  I am sure the forest fires didn't help the bees.
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Online Garigal

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2020, 04:55:28 am »
""I'd usually give them a few days to a week to settle in to their new surroundings and the stress from transporting them home etc before any transfer.""

Yep, and upset them again for a few days when at their weakest.........

""As for when to transfer them into a full size hive I would wait until they are strong in numbers and covering most if not all of the 5 frames then do the change over on a warm day with good weather.""

If they are not already there, leave them at the breeders and find a new source for bees,

Sooooo many new bees have forgotten the excluder during a dearth, IE: winter, and when the bees move up to the honey stores, the queen stays below and perishes, right when it is hardest to replace her.  It is best to have a couple or 3 years experience before using them.

Our winter conditions are in no way comparable to North America, probably why almost none of your management practices work here, and why ours don't work there.

Here in Sydney the coldest it gets is about 3 degrees C at dawn (avg 7-8C, with the coldest daytime temp of maybe 10 C on a windy day, the average is about 17-18 C, there's always something in flower year round apart from extreme drought periods, my bees never go broodless and even if I left my QX on over winter (a lot of others do) I highly doubt it would kill the queen as our bees scarcely (if ever) need to move up.

Yeah or just follow the advice from most of our state based Primary Industries Departments that has worked here in Australia for decades where we have a lot less beekeeping problems than the rest of the world.
Problems are like viruses.  They move around the world at different times.  Your time will come.  I am sure the forest fires didn't help the bees.

Pretty sure were way ahead of you guys in terms of virus control and flattening curves, just like keeping Varroa & tracheal mites out, gun control, a healthcare system that doesn't leave you bankrupt etc etc.

The bush fires did decimate large areas and has made it hard on some beekeepers particularly in Queensland but the drought isn't helping either although we are getting decent rain again in some areas.

Offline crispy

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2020, 06:03:46 am »
Hi guys thanks for all the replies , im not sure about waiting 3-4 years before adding a excluder but i can understand waiting until they have filled out most of the frames ,im only a backyarder so max hives are around 2 which is what i will do when i get the bees is start getting a second hive made up for future use in case of swarms or the eventuation of a second queen being produced ,anyway what i am thinking of is that i will place the nucleus in the area where i will set the super up ,leave it until all the frames are drawn then transfer the drawn frames to the first super ,once all the frames have been drawn out and i can see good brood numbers and also food stores ill add the second super and a queen excluder with fresh frames and foundation .   

Offline iddee

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2020, 07:31:02 am »
All beekeeping is local, It's impossible to advise a beek when you don't know his climate.
Ask 10 beeks a question and get 11  ""correct"" answers.
All bee advice has to be adjusted to your own situation.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Online Bee North

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2020, 07:56:05 am »
Hi guys thanks for all the replies , im not sure about waiting 3-4 years before adding a excluder but i can understand waiting until they have filled out most of the frames ,im only a backyarder so max hives are around 2 which is what i will do when i get the bees is start getting a second hive made up for future use in case of swarms or the eventuation of a second queen being produced ,anyway what i am thinking of is that i will place the nucleus in the area where i will set the super up ,leave it until all the frames are drawn then transfer the drawn frames to the first super ,once all the frames have been drawn out and i can see good brood numbers and also food stores ill add the second super and a queen excluder with fresh frames and foundation .   

Sound good Crispy.

But when you say place the nuc "in the area"....try placing it exactly where your going to put your hive. They will orientate to that exact location.

Work out the right place and put the girls there. Moving them is another post.

I too use a queen excluder and have never had a problem with them. They are pretty standard in Australia.

But hay...congratulations mate and welcome to the club! I'm happy for you.
 


Online Garigal

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2020, 08:21:33 am »

Offline Acebird

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2020, 08:50:59 am »
im not sure about waiting 3-4 years before adding a excluder but i can understand waiting until they have filled out most of the frames ,im only a backyarder so max hives are around 2
If you are a back yarder you have virtually no need to use a QE with the exception of finding a queen.
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Offline crispy

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2020, 09:51:54 am »
Hi acebird i was always under the assumption that when you add a second super you place a queen excluder between the top and bottom supers to stop the queen from laying brood in the super you want to draw honey from the top super . The queen excluder would not be in place until i was ready to place the second super onto the brood super which wuld be after the bees have drawn out all the brrod super frames with either brood or necter an honey 

Online Garigal

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2020, 10:18:19 am »
Hi acebird i was always under the assumption that when you add a second super you place a queen excluder between the top and bottom supers to stop the queen from laying brood in the super you want to draw honey from the top super . The queen excluder would not be in place until i was ready to place the second super onto the brood super which wuld be after the bees have drawn out all the brrod super frames with either brood or necter an honey

That's the advice you'll get from most commercial beekeepers, beekeeping suppliers and bee clubs in Australia, unless they subscribe to the 'natural beekeeping' way of doing things. QXs are referred to by some as honey excluders.

As I mentioned earlier, bees can be very reluctant to start working a super full of nothing but fresh foundation when it is placed on a queen excluder, so you either leave it off and let them start building comb then add the excluder making sure that the queen is below, or encourage them to move above the excluder by lifting 2-3 frames from the brood box above the excluder if you are sure the queen is not on that frame, or shake all the bees off before lifting. This can also be used as a method to manage laying space in the brood chamber and stop them from getting honey bound during spring buildup and swarming periods and also to cycle old frames out of the brood nest when necessary.

If you're just starting a hive this spring then your aim should really be to build strong colonies prior to winter and don't assume you can harvest anything in your first year but it all depends on what suits your local climate and flora.

Offline kanga

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2020, 08:26:24 pm »
If you are a back yarder you have virtually no need to use a QE with the exception of finding a queen.
In Australia beekeepers (commercial or back yarder) who do not use a QE are in the minority. In some climatic conditions the use of them has to be part of their winter management plan.
As I am considered to be in the sub tropics I leave them on for 12 months of the year and have never experienced a problem.
Kev

Offline crispy

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2020, 10:51:00 pm »
Hi guys this is what i tell people when they say well take some honey from you , that there may not even be enough to feed the hive in the first year . Ill wait and see how everything progresses and decide weather or not to add a second super if they have filled all the frames then i will look at what month it is if it is to close to winter ill leave it till the following season before adding a second super . What i will do is leave them as someone said to get used to there new home then transfer them maybe 2 weeks or so after, the nuc and the hive will be in the same place so should be no problems with orientation just the fact the foragers will go out and come back to a different house .

Offline Acebird

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2020, 09:45:15 am »
Hi acebird i was always under the assumption that when you add a second super you place a queen excluder between the top and bottom supers to stop the queen from laying brood in the super you want to draw honey from the top super .
You should not take honey from a hive unless there is a goodly amount of honey to be left for the bees.  In my opinion that means two to three full medium boxes of honey on the hive.  If there is that much honey on a hive there is no chance in heck that the queen will lay in the box you take.  If you like to live on the edge and take the most amount of honey that you can from a hive sometimes you will be wrong and lose the hive.  If you have 500 hives the risks work out.  If you have two hives you get burned.
Government agencies exist because they have to keep a watchful eye on commercial operation.  They typically have good information but their focus is commercial.
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Offline kanga

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Re: how long to wait
« Reply #19 on: Today at 02:06:35 am »
You should not take honey from a hive unless there is a goodly amount of honey to be left for the bees.  In my opinion that means two to three full medium boxes of honey on the hive.

Depending where you keep your bees in Australia swarming season can start in August and the honey season can last right through to April the following year. When extracting I generally will leave between 3 to 5 full depth frames (depending if it is early or late in the season) and I have never in 35 years of keeping bees lost a hive due to starvation.
From the above post it is obvious that the management of bees in Australia is very different from America.
Kev