Foundationless frames

[rayb]

Michael, or anyone else, if I want to try foundationless frames, can I just put the box of 10 frames ( with  guide strips ) right on top? Will they draw them all out evenly that way or do I mix them with drawn out frames as a guide in keeping things going straight?

Thanks, Ray

[Billy The Beekeeper]

Well idk i never tried that before i would go with foundation always i wouldnt let them build come by themselves without foundation. I think it will just become a problem but im newer to this hobby and never tried it before so like yea goodluck with that m8  :)                                 :mrgreen:

[Robo]

It is best to introduce them between drawn out frames.  If you put a full empty super on top, there isn't much incentive for them to move up and build comb. In fact,  they might just build comb from the top of the lower fames into the space you just provided.

[Billy The Beekeeper]

Good point always try and go with a checkerboard formation of drawn comb and foundation it gives them more of a incentive to go up. I think im right by this its just some of the things ive been told :)              :mrgreen:

[Scadsobees]

You can, expecially if using guides or strips on the frames.  If you have a CAPPED frame full of honey, you could use that in the middle to help them get started straighter.

If you use empty drawn comb, then they will fill that comb out and then keep drawing that comb out really wide, and and the comb next to will be skinny if drawn out at all.  Makes it interesting to try to pull out a frame when it extends into the frames on either side, although it does make for a really neat frame of honey :)

And you will want to keep an eye on them to make sure that they are drawing them straight, and that the hive is mostly straight.

Rick

[Billy The Beekeeper]

Yea gettin those odd drawn combs can be a pain from time to time. It is always better to have a neat combs instead of messy.   8-)

[Brian D. Bray]

>>If you use empty drawn comb, then they will fill that comb out and then keep drawing that comb out really wide, and and the comb next to will be skinny if drawn out at all.  Makes it interesting to try to pull out a frame when it extends into the frames on either side, although it does make for a really neat frame of honey

Only if you're using less that the recommended number of frames in a box.  10 frames with starter strips will be drawn out as uniform as 10 frames with foundation. As MB says, and I reiterate, use 10 frames in every brood box of every 10 frame hive.  If you must use less than 10 frames in a 19 frame box reserve it solely for the harvestable supers.

[Michael Bush]

I LIKE to have one drawn comb in a super full of foundationless frames for insurance.  But they USUALLY do fine without it.  You need some kind of guide, of course.  That can be a starter strip, as you've mentioned, or a wooden strip or a wooden bevel.  They all work.  L.L. Langstroths advice for his frames (which were foundationless) was to tie a comb into one of them to get them started off right.

[Robo]

>>If you use empty drawn comb, then they will fill that comb out and then keep drawing that comb out really wide, and and the comb next to will be skinny if drawn out at all.  Makes it interesting to try to pull out a frame when it extends into the frames on either side, although it does make for a really neat frame of honey

Only if you're using less that the recommended number of frames in a box.  10 frames with starter strips will be drawn out as uniform as 10 frames with foundation. As MB says, and I reiterate, use 10 frames in every brood box of every 10 frame hive.  If you must use less than 10 frames in a 19 frame box reserve it solely for the harvestable supers.

I think Scadsobees point is if you try and use drawn frames on either side of a foundationless frame as guides in a honey super,  they will overdraw the drawn frames into the foundationless frame space instead of building comb in the foundationless comb.  This happens regardless if you have 10 frames.   In fact, it will happen with a new frame with foundation between 2 drawn frames too.   That is why it is best to place the foundationless frame between brood frames or capped honey frames.

[Kirk-o]

For guides you can use chamfer strip I call it it is the shape of a triangle it comes
in one half or three quarter inch you can nail or glue it on the top bar or and down the side of the frame
kirk-o

[Zoot]

MB, etc,

When you advise installing some empty frames (empty- no starter strips, nothing) when opening the brood nest - ar anytime that you would install foundationless frames without internal support for that matter - can extremely hot weather be an issue with their stability? Are there any other negatives?

[Brian D. Bray]

Zoot,

Excessive heat can effect the tinsel strength of new comb even in wired (supported) foundation.  If proper ventilation is used excessive heat is not an issue as the bees are better able to control the temperature within the hive.  New comb is quite pliable, as it ages it becomes more rigid.

[Michael Bush]

>can extremely hot weather be an issue with their stability?

They will not be heavy in the brood nest and the temperature there is constant regardless of the weather.

In a super they can be very heavy and very soft.  Rarely one will fall.  If I go bigger than a medium I would put a wire in to help support it in a super.  Again, in the brood nest weight isn't an issue.

>Are there any other negatives?

Make sure the hive is level.  You could end up with a comb that starts on one frame and ends on the one next to it.  :)