Varroa infestation in close proximity to another hive

[TheMasonicHive]

Hello everyone.


I'm a first year beek and have two hives that are right next to eachother.

I saw a mite a few weeks ago in my first hive, and have been doing 24 hour mite drops with my SBB once a week. 

My first hive has gone from 10, to 15, to 20ish, so it appears that the varroa are winning that hive.

My second hive has pretty much remained steady with only a couple of mites per drop.

1)  Is the proximity of these two hives basically dooming them both?

2)  Are there precautions I need to be taking during inspections to make sure I'm not opening up the door to transmission from the first hive?

3)  With a 20 mite count in the first hive I was leaving a super on (unlimited broodnest) for stores for the winter.  Should I just pull it and harvest and pretty much write off that hive?

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated!

[FRAMEshift]

Are you using regular foundation?  What is your position on treatments?

20 is not all that high.  Many beeks don't treat till you get to 50, although I would think 20-30 would make more sense.    We use confectioner's sugar and try to time the treatments with low or no brood.   If you have  a number of drawn foundationless frames going into winter, you should be ok even without treatment.

You could just go ahead and do a sugar treatment even if it kills some brood.  That break in the brood cycle will also hurt the mites.

I don't think you should worry about transmission since your other hive already has mites.  You aren't going to transfer such a large number that it would make any difference.  The success of the mites has much more to do with the ability of the bees to fight them and the treatments you do than with how many are coming it the door.

[TheMasonicHive]

It is my goal to be treatment free.  I know it sounds ridiculous, but I just don't want to put chemicals in there.

I know some will say sugar syrup is a chemical, and I agree, but I do not plan on feeding again since I'm using an unlimited broodnest approach and they should have ample stores to sustain themselves during dearths.

[FRAMEshift]

It is my goal to be treatment free.  I know it sounds ridiculous, but I just don't want to put chemicals in there.

Not ridiculous at all.  I agree with you.  But if you are using wax foundation, you are adding chemicals.  That wax is recycled and contains pesticides etc.  It depends on what you call chemicals I guess.  

I know some will say sugar syrup is a chemical, and I agree, but I do not plan on feeding again since I'm using an unlimited broodnest approach and they should have ample stores to sustain themselves during dearths.

Pure sugar is not a problem as far as chemical contamination, but using sugar syrup may cause problems by stimulating continuous brood, which helps the mites.

If you are on standard foundation and not using any treatments or breaks in the brood cycle, your hives will not make it beyond next summer.  Mites win in the second year if you don't use some treatment or have them on small cell or natural comb.  I would suggest that you start adding foundationless frames and do powdered sugar treatments to knock the mites back.

Unlimited broodnest by itself is not going to protect your hives.  

[indypartridge]

I'm a first year beek and have two hives...

It is my goal to be treatment free.

With a 20 mite count in the first hive ... Should I just pull it ... and pretty much write off that hive?

I'd like to be treatment free. I'd also like to be rich. Since I'm not rich, I compromise on "treatment free". Bags of powdered sugar cost a few bucks, replacing bees in the spring with packages or nucs costs considerably more.

If you lose one hive to mites before winter, what happens if you lose your remaining hive (for any reason) during the winter? Next spring you start over. No fun.

That said, I don't think 20 mites in 24 hours is a death sentence. I don't treat at that level, I wait until it's closer to 50, but as you've observed, counts tend to increase toward the end of summer, so keep an eye on it. In my experience, first year colonies often don't require any kind of treatment until the second year.

Proximity of the hives isn't something to worry about. Bees are social and visit other colonies (especially drones) so there's not much you can do about it.

[TheMasonicHive]

FRAMEshift, I am using wax foundation and I started off feeding my packages syrup with Honey B Healthy.

I know that in order to keep them more naturally I need to stop that, which I have.  Its just an issue of getting them to a point in which they can sustain themselves. 

I know that unlimited broodnest won't completely solve my problems either.

What I do know is that my approach needs to be phased and not immediate, so if my hives make it through the winter I am going to start introducing foundationless frames.  I just think its a bit too late in the season for me to make an attempt at switching.

[FRAMEshift]

FRAMEshift, I am using wax foundation and I started off feeding my packages syrup with Honey B Healthy.

I know that in order to keep them more naturally I need to stop that, which I have.  Its just an issue of getting them to a point in which they can sustain themselves.  

They will get to the point of being self-sustaining in food  IF they survive the mites. I think maybe you are a bit too focused on what the bees are eating and maybe not focused enough on what is going to eat your bees.   :-D  As indypartridge has mentioned, you need to compromise on powdered sugar treatment or you will have to start over.  My gosh, you've already compromised by having chemical containing foundation in your hive, and those chemicals are a LOT worse than sugar.  

I know that unlimited broodnest won't completely solve my problems either.

What I do know is that my approach needs to be phased and not immediate, so if my hives make it through the winter I am going to start introducing foundationless frames.  I just think its a bit too late in the season for me to make an attempt at switching.

If your bees are still drawing comb, it's not too late to start with foundationless.  From the point of view of making the switch to natural comb, now is always better than later.  Every bit of wax the bees add to a foundation is wasted.  I'm not saying you should throw out your foundation frames if they have already been drawn.  But if they haven't been drawn, get them out of there.  Then you can add foundationless frames as needed.

Take a look at Michael Bush's site:   http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

and the work of BWrangler http://beenatural.wordpress.com/natural-beekeeping/observations/natural-comb/

What they have found is that you have to treat bees for mites until you get your bees on small cell or natural comb.  It took BWrangler 3 years of treatment until he could move his bees gradually to natural comb.  You can't wait 3 years without treatment.  The bees WILL NOT SURVIVE.  

If you are like me, you start with the idea that the bees evolved to survive and they should be able to make it without treatments.  But you did not start with feral, wild bees.  And they did not draw their own comb from scratch.  You started with bees raised on foundation and they continue living on foundation.  They are not natural so they can't live naturally.  Sorry but that's the truth.  


Maybe you think that because your bees have survived for a few months they will continue to survive.  Not likely.  The mites will build next spring to very high levels.  a little powdered sugar (and breaking the brood cycle at some point) is a small price to pay to get your bees to the point where they can beat the mites on their own.    The bees are much more able to defeat the mites if they are on small cell or natural comb.  I don't know why.  Maybe their instinct to chew up the mites and clean themselves is higher in smaller cells.  But the sad truth is that as long as you are using large cell foundation, you must treat with something.

[Michael Bush]

Instead of worrying, why not quantify the problem?  Do a sugar shake and count the mites...

[BjornBee]

Masonic,

Whenever I suggest someone to a forum, I always add a little comment about taking things sometimes with grain of salt. That many "absolute" comments will be claimed about they will die if you do this, or they will survive if you do that. And perhaps that is good advice here.

a few points...Yes, foundation has been found to have chemicals, just like about anything else. It was something closely looked at when CCD first started. But since then, no clear study or evidence has been shown that the chemical levels in commercial foundation a detriment to bees. In fact, I paid for my own samples to be tested from bees on commercial foundation with chemicals and the test indicated no actual transmission of chemicals in the wax transferring over to the bees. It did show that the bees were bringing in chemicals from down the street at some very high levels. And I would suggest even with natural comb, your bees are making it with tainted nectar and could be in the wax. Although no studies have gone that far as to use tainted nectar and ,measure the residue in wax.

I have, as well as others, bees on foundation other than smallcell or natural comb. I don't see all my hives on regular foundation die every year or second year. Many things go into whether a hive dies or survives. Whether that be management, genetics, or anything else. People act like throwing your bees on natural comb will magically make bees survive. And that from my experience is false. I stated long before the first studies ever came out debunking most of the hype, that I found the same results in my own yards..

Keep asking questions. Sift through the hype. Keep your mind open. Many things do help. And I'm a big proponent of natural comb, as well as other items you mention.

You can focus on some of these things also....

***"Clean" comb is probably not true regardless of what foundation or foundationless system you use. The bees will start contaminating it from day one and chemicals build through the years. Comb rotation is the key. There are benefits to natural comb, so don't get me wrong. I'm just suggesting that it is not as black/white as some may suggest with success/failure.

***Getting off the package bee bandwagon. Raising your own queens or getting better stock than standard mass produced bees. There are huge differences between Italians and other breeds such as Russian and Carni when it comes to mite resistance.

***Using young queens that help with productivity, but also overall hive health in many ways.

***Doing summer splits. This allows you to make up any loss, go into winter with a few extra, and helps if timed correctly with breaks in the mite cycle.

***Understanding the many other factors that impact mites, and the hives overall health. Such as equipment management, apiary location, etc.

I'm one who keeps bees in about every type of hive. And I will state that no one foundation, or type hive, solves all the mites issues. Many successfull beekeepers, whether smallcell, natural comb, or anything else, are beekeepers with a great understanding of bees and the attention to detail that allows them to deal with situations prior to detrimental consequences.

[Finski]

It is my goal to be treatment free.  I know it sounds ridiculous, but I just don't want to put chemicals in there.

OK, you hive will be dead soon. Chemical free  and bee free.  You should first learn basics before you think your personal goals.

Have you looked your wife's chemicals ?

[TheMasonicHive]

Bjorn,

Firstly, thank you for your reply.  I'm not looking at things so short sighted.  I'm well aware that there are MANY factors that affect bees and there are no magical cures or solutions to problems.

1)  I would like to do foundationless because there will be less chemicals in the wax up front.  Over time I have no doubt whatsoever that it will become contaminated.  Culling comb here and there will be part of my process.  Also, I see no harm in the natural cell sizes.

2)  I do not want packages.  I only got them because it is my first year.  I will be working hard and studying about queen rearing, and I plan on making my own.  From this point on its nucs or splits.

3)  I'm learning that timing is everything, but I have no idea how to do splits honestly.  I don't know how nuc boxes work and so forth.  Thats a major goal for next year...not new hives...but new tools and resources to help my existing colonies.

Overall I think my picture of the colonys and how they operate is stuck in a very narrow frame.  I know about looking and inspecting, but I'm starting to realize that I know very little about MANAGEMENT.

[FRAMEshift]

It did show that the bees were bringing in chemicals from down the street at some very high levels.

That's interesting and I haven't heard about this before.  I'd be interested in any details about your study.

I have, as well as others, bees on foundation other than smallcell or natural comb. I don't see all my hives on regular foundation die every year or second year.

Bjorn, what is the survival rate of your hives if you have them on standard foundation and don't treat at all and don't break the brood cycle?  That seems to be where masonic is right now.

[BjornBee]

Frame,

I have spoken of this testing many times. It was part of the testing, paid for out of my own pocket, that highlighted the tainted (DDT and fluvinate) foreign pollen that was being sold by some of the large bee suppliers a couple years back. I had also tested at that time, my own hives on commercial foundation. It was shocking to see what the bees were dragging in from the countryside. But no residue could be found in the bees from the commercial wax. I think the paperwork is at the farm where I left it last. I'll look for it and include some of the findings later.

[AliciaH]

Masonic Hive, I agree with BjornBee, you will get differing opinions about everything.  As my mentor says, "There's as many ways as there are beekeepers!"  Having said that, I will offer my two cents...

I tried going chemical free.  I probably missed a few things but was good with the powdered sugar and used peppermint teas or spearmint oils in my sugar water.  I made it through two winters that way.  This spring (my third season) I had issues.  From one visit to the next (bad weather so probably a week in between) I found huge mounds of dead bees in front of two of my hives.  One had been wintered over two years, one was a new nuc (grrrr, yes they came sick! blah!).  After researching, I discovered information on "Varroa Mite Syndrome".  Of all the things I wanted to learn this year, that was not one of them.

Since the hives were already hit very hard, having lost up to 75% of their adult populations, I tried to think like a varroa and did what was probably a risky thing, I pulled what was left of all the brood and swapped for built out foundation.  The queens were showing that they were still wanting to lay strong brood patterns, so as the workers that were left capped new brood, I'd wait a few days and pull the frame.  The foundation I replaced it with was older and marked for replacement itself, but this was a bigger problem.  Hindsight, I laugh because at the time, the red haze of, "Die, varroa, die!" was complete enough that it took me a few frame swaps to realize I was artificially creating that badly needed break in brood cycle. 

I'm sure others will weigh in on this and that there are better ways.  But I was fortunate in that it worked and that those two hives fully recovered their numbers.  Because my mite count got so high, I will be treating with chemicals for the first time this fall.  My comprmise will be how often will I need to use chemicals...once a year, once every two years, or can I add frame rotation into the mix and only have to do this once?

So, yes, the willingness to compromise and a lots of flexibility.  You've already indicated having these two things so I'm sure you'll be fine.  This was just my story.  Good luck! 

[Kathyp]

none of the manipulations, foundations..or not, treatments..or not, will matter if you don't have bees that are survivors.  more important than any of your plans, is your bee stock.  if you are buying packages and decide to go treatment free, you will probably lose them.  if you are collecting swarms and those swarms come from treated hive, you will probably lose them.  not always, but that's what i plan for and am pleasantly surprised when they make it  :-D

1st learn what makes for strong bees, then make a plan.

i would also suggest that you not be dogmatic about feeding.  there are years when you don't need to feed.  others, when you will lose your bees if you don't feed spring and fall.  not using medications is one thing.  allowing something to starve to death is quite another.

[FRAMEshift]

masonic, since you want to raise queens and are thinking about splits, let me mention a nice management sequence that has worked for us so far.   As Bjorn says, you can do a summer split. We do it at the summer solstice.  There are many ways to do it but this is my favorite.  Just move the queen and 3 frames of brood and 2 frames of honey/pollen to a new hive box.  You can make the box smaller with a follower if needed.   All the foragers will remain with the original hive.  

You have broken the brood cycle in the original hive since it will be about 4 weeks until they can raise a new queen and she starts laying.  After 10 days, all the brood in the hive will be capped and so will not be damaged by powdered sugar treatment.  So you dust them at 5 day intervals with a cup of sugar.  This is especially effective starting 3 weeks after the split because there is no worker brood at all.  All the mites are either phoretic (riding around on adult bees) or they are in the drone cells still feeding on drone pupae.  This would be the ideal time to remove any drone comb traps you are using.  Then there is no brood at all and all the mites are vulnerable to sugar treatment.  Stop the sugar when the new queen starts laying.  Oh, an added advantage is that the mite to brood ratio is so high that the first of the new brood will be colonized by so many mites that the larva will die and all the colonizing mites with it.

For us, one additional advantage is that the reduction in foragers matches up pretty well with the local dearth, so there are fewer mouths to feed.  The new brood comes on line in time for the fall flow.  So this is one example of mite management you can do that uses a minimum of effort, no chemicals other than powered sugar, and gives you a new hive.

[AliciaH]

Thanks for mapping that out so well, FRAMEshift!  What I did this year was crisis management; it will be nice to plan something proactively for next year that is a lot less stressful!